It goes with the territory.
"I would meet you upon this honestly."

Was Eliot preoccupied or Gerontion?
P.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "DIana Manister" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 6:55 AM
Subject: Re: 'Gerontion' -- the dramatic arc


> Eliot seems to be fascinated by defecation in this poem, merds and
> squatting and Fresca in the loo. Overly stern toilet-training perhaps.
>
> Diana
>
> Sent from my iPod
>
> On Mar 3, 2010, at 12:35 AM, Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
> > Someone in a previous post made the suggestion.
> >
> > Judaism did preceed Christianity.
> >
> > There is something of an historical perspective in the poem,
> > as the old man looks back on the past
> > (remember the line about the past having another pattern in 4Q).
> > The images do challenge given stereotypes. Christ is not usually
> > presented
> > as a tiger, nor is the crucifixion usually presented as a devouring of
> > humanity.
> >
> > The anagogical dimension of the poem is really quite interesting.
> >
> > What would be your reaction if the line went
> > "my friend squats in the window"?
> >
> > P.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "DIana Manister" <[log in to unmask]>
> > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 4:19 AM
> > Subject: Re: 'Gerontion' -- the dramatic arc
> >
> >
> >> Who says the Jew is Jesus? He's depicted as negatively as Fresca and
> >> von Kulp. Who are they? Mary Magdelene and The Blessed Mother?
> >>
> >> Diana
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPod
> >>
> >> On Feb 27, 2010, at 12:03 AM, Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> If the Jew is Jesus, is he being anti-Semetic, or anti-Christian, or
> >>> both?
> >>> P.
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "DIana Manister" <[log in to unmask]>
> >>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> >>> Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 5:38 PM
> >>> Subject: Re: 'Gerontion' -- the dramatic arc
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Dear Ken,
> >>>>
> >>>> The Jew bred in an estaminet is one of
> >>>> the most-often cited examples of Eliot's
> >>>> anti-Semitism, and the text you provided notes that Fresca comes
> >>>> from
> >>>> Eliot's parody of Pope's Rape of the Lock, in which Eliot depicts
> >>>> Fresca going to the loo -- another Jesus figure
> >>>> perhaps? Fraulein von Kulp's name is discussed in the text you
> >>>> linked
> >>>> to as derogatory, suggesting her culpability.
> >>>>
> >>>> I didn't invent these interpretations. Gerontion's narrator is
> >>>> holier-
> >>>> than-thou
> >>>> while expressing disgust for most of the human race.
> >>>>
> >>>> Diana
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Sent from my iPod
> >>>>
> >>>> On Feb 26, 2010, at 4:15 PM, Ken Armstrong <[log in to unmask]
> >>>> >
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Diana,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Ah, read your post again and have to say no, I don't think you've
> >>>>> got much more than the most surfacy surface parts of it. Again,
> >>>>> it's
> >>>>> a scene of communion,  "the jew" is Christ (the owner of the
> >>>>> "house"
> >>>>> i.e. the temple that the body is and the "house" that would have
> >>>>> stained glass windows),  and there is no sneering to speak of.  To
> >>>>> say you don't want to know the significance of the names is just
> >>>>> an
> >>>>> abbreviated way to say you don't want to know the  poem, and
> >>>>> little
> >>>>> stands in your way to that end. Why not just leave it alone?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Ken
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Diana Manister wrote:
> >>>>>> Dear Ken,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Interesting text -- thanks. I'm trying to
> >>>>>> like Gerontion's narrator, but find it difficult.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> He's such a prig. He doesn't show much Christian charity towards
> >>>>>> others.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> And yes, reading the poem again I see
> >>>>>> that he's not taking ownership of his situation. Like Fitzgerald,
> >>>>>> he waits for a blessing from above.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> What do you like about this narrator?
> >>>>>> Seriously. Don't you find him preachy
> >>>>>> and superior-sounding, ready to tell
> >>>>>> everyone how it is, while sneering at
> >>>>>> the Jew, Fresca and Fraulein von Kulp (culpable), among others?
> >>>>>> He's not engaging at all. I don't want to know the significance
> >>>>>> of
> >>>>>> all the names as I'm certain they demeaning.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The nuns taught us that confession is
> >>>>>> worthless unless one tries to stop sinning, but this narrator
> >>>>>> goes
> >>>>>> along
> >>>>>> displaying his disgust with most of humanity in an un-Christlike
> >>>>>> manner,
> >>>>>> showing no contrition for it. How can he expect a blessing?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Diana
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Sent from my iPod
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Feb 26, 2010, at 11:07 AM, Ken Armstrong
> >>>>>> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> DIana Manister wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Dear Peter,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> The poem's speaker seems to acknowledge his inadequacies as his
> >>>>>>>> own, that is he is stuck because of his personal failure.
> >>>>>>> Not really. The poem's commands to the reader to "Think" include
> >>>>>>> this one:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Think
> >>>>>>>      44Neither fear nor courage saves us. Unnatural vices
> >>>>>>>      45Are fathered by our heroism.  Virtues
> >>>>>>>      46Are forced upon us by our impudent crimes.
> >>>>>>>      47 <http://rpo.library.utoronto.ca/poem/777.html#50>These
> >>>>>>> tears are shaken from the wrath-bearing tree.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The poem is the scene of communion and does specifically touch
> >>>>>>> on
> >>>>>>> what Peter notes. Neither fear nor courage saves us.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Ken
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>
> >