The thing is, dear Diana, O! O! Diana, that nobody knows who does or does
not get into heaven for sure,
because it is God who does the judging, and God who does the saving. You
remember the old
bon mot, Judge not lest though bejudged.
We do know our God is a merciful God, and he DOES want folks to make it to
If they know the regimen and they refuse, well then that's their choice. If
they know the regimen
and they accept, then the chances are really good that they get in,
according to the New Testament.
(I won't argue it all here).
So Hitler may well get in, if he repented in the end and was sorry for all
Of course if he was mad, he may not have been responsibe, &c. &c.
I'm sure what the nuns taught when you were in high scool was appropriate
stage of one's development, but a mature adult with a highly
developed intelligence, might want/need something more to get the real gist
Going by what you learned in high school really doesn't allow you to be very
Jesus did die on the cross for biblical scholars, and for everyone else.
"In the juvescence of the year
Came Christ the tiger"
"The tiger springs in the new year. Us he devours."
Your reading of Gerontian is very different from mine.
Do you find Gerontion [the character and/or the poem) very threatening?
I do hope to get a chance to elaborate my take soon.
It's been a while since I looked at it,
so I'm giving it the once over as time allows.
----- Original Message -----
From: "DIana Manister" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 4:16 AM
Subject: Re: 'Gerontion' -- the dramatic arc
> Dear Peter,
> So Hitler is as likely to receive Christian salvation as Mother Theresa?
> Who needs religion then?
> Further, Jesus, in my understanding, did not die on the cross for
> biblical scholars.
> The narrator of Gerontion is not a sympathetic character, and that's a
> flaw in the work. He judges others as if he were God, and finds them
> to be less worthy than himself. He is guilty of big interesting sins
> while they are guilty of offending his snobbish taste.
> Sent from my iPod
> On Feb 27, 2010, at 12:13 AM, Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
> > The thing is that even the most virtuous of people does not
> > thereby merit salvation. Good ol Saul, hell bent on stoning
> > Chrisitians got his socks knocked off when he was knocked off his
> > horse.
> > St. Augustine was a flagrant libertine of the first order.
> > There is no human rhyme or reason to God's order of things.
> > Also don't confuse charity with being nice to one's neighbor.
> > Charity is a matter of action, deeds, not feelings.
> > Also, don't look one this guy as being presented with any pro-
> > Chrisitan
> > attitude.
> > It is worth thinking about whether he has inherited a culture
> > permeated with
> > Christian values, to which he thinks he is totally indifferent. As
> > such he
> > is a fine
> > symbolic portrait of a whole generation or two. A generation that is
> > not
> > particularly
> > pleasant to look at.
> > One doesn't have to have a highly developed Christian UNDERSTANDING
> > to deal
> > with the poem,
> > but the absence of such an understanding means a whole context is
> > not being
> > involved in the analysis.
> > P.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Diana Manister" <[log in to unmask]>
> > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 11:56 AM
> > Subject: Re: 'Gerontion' -- the dramatic arc
> >> Dear Ken,
> >> Interesting text -- thanks. I'm trying to
> >> like Gerontion's narrator, but find it difficult.
> >> He's such a prig. He doesn't show much Christian charity towards
> >> others.
> >> And yes, reading the poem again I see
> >> that he's not taking ownership of his situation. Like Fitzgerald, he
> >> waits for a blessing from above.
> >> What do you like about this narrator?
> >> Seriously. Don't you find him preachy
> >> and superior-sounding, ready to tell
> >> everyone how it is, while sneering at
> >> the Jew, Fresca and Fraulein von Kulp (culpable), among others? He's
> >> not engaging at all. I don't want to know the significance of all the
> >> names as I'm certain they demeaning.
> >> The nuns taught us that confession is
> >> worthless unless one tries to stop sinning, but this narrator goes
> >> along
> >> displaying his disgust with most of humanity in an un-Christlike
> >> manner,
> >> showing no contrition for it. How can he expect a blessing?
> >> Diana
> >> Sent from my iPod
> >> On Feb 26, 2010, at 11:07 AM, Ken Armstrong
> >> <[log in to unmask]>
> >> wrote:
> >>> DIana Manister wrote:
> >>>> Dear Peter,
> >>>> The poem's speaker seems to acknowledge his inadequacies as his
> >>>> own, that is he is stuck because of his personal failure.
> >>> Not really. The poem's commands to the reader to "Think" include
> >>> this one:
> >>> Think
> >>> 44Neither fear nor courage saves us. Unnatural vices
> >>> 45Are fathered by our heroism. Virtues
> >>> 46Are forced upon us by our impudent crimes.
> >>> 47 <http://rpo.library.utoronto.ca/poem/777.html#50>These
> >>> tears are shaken from the wrath-bearing tree.
> >>> The poem is the scene of communion and does specifically touch on
> >>> what Peter notes. Neither fear nor courage saves us.
> >>> Ken