I can't give this much attention this week. I don't remember all my
sources, but on Antigone in particular a major source was H.D.F. Kitto,
some book on drama which I don't believe I have any more. His book on
the Greeks is quite good, particularly on the Polis. On Athenian
democracy Ellen Meiksins Wood, Peasant-Citizen and Slave: The
Foundations of Athenian Democracy_, plus the books listed in its
endnotes, is superb.It's been nearly a half century since I read it, but
Gerald Else's Commentary on the Poetics is fascinating. de Ste. Croix
has some interesting though debatable ideas on women in Athens in _Class
Struggles in the Ancient Greek World_. George Thompson, Aeschylus and
Athens, is grounded in anthropology that's pretty dated and dubious, but
still a fascinating work. (All titles from memory but I think they are
close to accurate.

Carrol

> Nancy Gish wrote:
> 
> Dear Diana and Carroll,
> 
> I'm not a Greek scholar and rely on notes from those who are, but I
> don't have my text here.  I should no doubt have said that Antigone is
> stubborn on what she calls--at least at first (she changes her
> positions as death approaches)--the law of the gods that is higher
> than that of Creon.  Or perhaps she says what she does about a husband
> or son in the sense that she would not see it as necessary to die for
> the law of gods in that situation.  But in more than one translation
> I've read, she does claim that the gods' laws are above Creon's and
> she will follow the first.  I have no idea what the culture supported,
> though the classics scholar at my university explained that it was not
> absolute and consisent.
> 
> My interest was, however, that the play itself validates her and not
> Creon.
> Cheers,
> Nancy
> 
> >>> Diana Manister <[log in to unmask]> 4/7/2009 11:41 AM >>>
> Nancy and Carrol, many thanks for the fascinating information! Diana
> 
> > Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 09:09:55 -0500
> > From: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: Mostly OT: Antigone
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> >
> > > Nancy Gish wrote:
> > >
> > > I teach it every fall, and I think the translation one uses can
> affect
> > > reading--I don't read the original. But I think you are right
> about
> > > stubbornness. However, in the end it is Creon who is condemned by
> the
> > > gods, whose anger is reported by Tiresias. And Haemon tells his
> > > father he is stubborn and unreasonable. Antigone, on the other
> hand,
> > > is stubborn in the interests of following the gods' laws to bury
> the
> > > dead, and Tiresias also insists that Creon should give in, as does
> the
> > > chorus. So although I recognize that both have flaws, it seems to
> me
> > > that it is Antigone who is validated in the end and Creon who is
> > > destroyed by the gods for hubris. Of course that is one reason for
> > > arguments that he is the protagonist.
> >
> > I think it is misleading to speak of gods' _law_ to bury the dead;
> > rather they supported Antigone's choice and rejected Creon's
> impiety,
> > which centrally consisted in his attempt to control the future.
> >
> > The gods certainly do _support_ Antigone. And when Creon reacts to
> > Tiresias he is reacting to reality itself, of which Tiresias is the
> > spokesman. Moreover, it is not Antigone who buries her brother a
> SECOND
> > time -- that has to be ascribed to the gods rather than her. (I
> don't
> > remember the passage now, but I think if you look closely at
> Antigone's
> > responses you will find that while she proclaims her 'guilt' for the
> > first burial, she is puzzled and dismisses the second.)
> >
> > But there is a sharp difference betweenn being _supported_ in her
> action
> > by the g ods and acting under religious compulsion. There is _no_
> > obligation on her part to bury the dead, as shown by that line some
> > 19th-c scholars attempted to label spurious: I would not do it if it
> > were my husband or my son! (And incidentally, the obligation to bury
> the
> > dead was not a consistent element in Greek religious tradition, and
> > there is not a word in the play suggesting any religious obligation
> to
> > bury the dead.)
> >
> > It is difficult for many readers of the last coupple of centuries to
> > realize how deeply politicl Athenian drama was. The very selection
> of
> > plays to be performed at the annual festival (there was no theatre
> in a
> > modern sense but only this festival, an integral part of the
> Athenian
> > political/religious year). Moreover, no paly could be produced
> unless
> > the authro had a wealthy sponsor, since the author had to bear the
> costs
> > of the performance. The inauguration of a new president in the &.S.
> is a
> > better image of Athenian Drma than is Broadway. Also, the 'symbol'
> of
> > the tyrant in G*reece was the presence of a bodyguard. Only tyrans
> had
> > bodyguards.
> >
> > One also needs to incorporate thesignificance of the two scenes
> between
> > Antigone and her sister. In the second scene Ismene has recognized
> the
> > self-destruction implicit in her earlier refusal to aid and now
> wishes
> > to add herself to it retroactively; Antigone angrilly refuses her:
> She
> > had her chance -- now live with it. Antigone is not a particularly
> nice
> > person -- she merely constitutes the reality that Creon cannot
> accept
> > until it is too late. Her suicide is a political act which destroys
> > Creon.
> >
> > Carrol
> 
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