LISTSERV mailing list manager LISTSERV 16.0

Help for TSE Archives


TSE Archives

TSE Archives


TSE@PO.MISSOURI.EDU


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Monospaced Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

TSE Home

TSE Home

TSE  August 2007

TSE August 2007

Subject:

Re: Water in TWL

From:

Nancy Gish <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

T. S. Eliot Discussion forum.

Date:

Wed, 1 Aug 2007 09:18:00 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (129 lines)

My concern is the need for some genuine discussion and debate about the
poetry in place of a series of statements that assume (as opposed to
justify) that what we are discussing is religion. There is nothing in
my questions below to call for past posts because they are asked only
about what was in the previous post.

These assumptions about religion are not at all obvious, and I am simply
querying their constant presence. "Concerns" is not really an apt word
since it implies that what is going on is simply an exchange of facts.
It is a discussion, and one can enter it at any point.

My point in the message below is that the text is not based in obvious
truths. It is a complex poem and can be read in many ways. The focus
on religion is only one and one that does not necessarily match what we
know about Eliot's own religious attitudes in 1919-1921.

So you need not offer any alternative unless you like, but I am not at
all required to fit any program (as in "raise concerns" at some specific
time.)

I do not think TWL is primarily about religion though obviously it has
religious references. I do not think the reading that it is a prelude
to finding faith is a sufficient explanation of what it depicts. I
think anyone still claiming that needs to justify it as part of a
framework for the poem rather than a series of separate comments on
images assumed without explanation to be religious. And I especially do
not think one can understand images in isolation. I don't have any
responsibility to say that at any time before now.
Cheers,
Nancy

>>> Chokh Raj <[log in to unmask]> 07/31/07 11:23 PM >>>
I would be in a better position to address your concerns if
  you were to refer to any of my past posts, Nancy Gish.
   
  I cannot take up any of the issues here without recourse to
  what I have already said before -- if you had had any concerns
  then you should have raised them then and there.
   
  CR
  

Nancy Gish <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
  I'm confused. With what, in the first point, do you agree? I asked a
question.

How can you affirm that her wet hair represents pure, undefiled passion?
Whose? In the prior version of this, "Dans le Restaurant," the old
waiter is the one desiring, and the narrator sees him as sordid and
disgusting. In this one the speaker feels nothing at all. Is it hers?
Then does "passion" fit an innocent girl hurt by the change in one who
once flirted?

It is just this announcing of "this represents that" that I am trying to
ask questions about.

Nothing in the text is obvious. I've been reading TWL and others on it
all my life and it is not at all obvious to me that it is what you
state. That is why it is still a subject of fascination and diverse
readings after 85 years. So the question remains, what is the nature of
the poem itself? What is it about and why? Christianity in hindsight
is not a given.
Cheers,
Nancy

>>> Chokh Raj 07/31/07 9:55 PM >>>
Nancy Gish wrote:

>Why do you assume the poem has "a narrator"? That itself is a very
>contested claim. And why, unless it is a lyric, would the narrator's
>desire be the same as Eliot's?

Agreed there, Nancy.

> And in what sense is the wetness on the Hyacinth girl's hair
>either lust or spiritual life since it seems quite clearly to many
>readers an image of young and innocent desire?

The water here represents passion -- pure, undefiled -- what
St. Augustine (I'd quoted) refers to as something he defiled :
"I defiled the very source of friendship by the filth of
concupiscence,
and its clear waters I befouled with the lust of hell ....
BTW I had said water as a metaphor for emotional and
spiritual life, it is clear and regenerative. Earlier I had
written of the yearning in the poem for the life-giving waters
of "spirtuality and love".

>I ask these questions because I am trying to suggest that the poem is
>not a set of clues to a puzzle and it is not a set of limited
categories
>like "lust" vs. "spirit."

But one cannot close one's eyes to what is so obvious in the text --
I have never said a word without quoting to substantiate my point
from the text -- and always in relation to the poem as a whole.

>Nor is it clearly spoken by one narrator--or if it is, by whom?
>Some say Eliot; some say Tiresias; some say a persona in the role
>of questor.

Agreed.

>These isolated and disparate speculations need some context and
> overall framework to provide a reading. I respond to you in this
case only
>because this is the message that turned up; the response is to a whole
>line of commentary.

This point is already addressed above.

Regards,
CR



---------------------------------
Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's
on, when.

---------------------------------
Building a website is a piece of cake.
Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.


       
---------------------------------
Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles.
Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

Advanced Options


Options

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password


Search Archives

Search Archives


Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe


Archives

November 2019
October 2019
September 2019
August 2019
July 2019
June 2019
May 2019
April 2019
March 2019
February 2019
January 2019
December 2018
November 2018
October 2018
September 2018
August 2018
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
April 2018
March 2018
February 2018
January 2018
December 2017
November 2017
October 2017
September 2017
August 2017
July 2017
June 2017
May 2017
April 2017
March 2017
February 2017
January 2017
December 2016
November 2016
October 2016
September 2016
August 2016
July 2016
June 2016
May 2016
April 2016
March 2016
February 2016
January 2016
December 2015
November 2015
October 2015
September 2015
August 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
July 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
November 2013
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
May 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
October 2006
September 2006
August 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006
April 2006
March 2006
February 2006
January 2006
December 2005
November 2005
October 2005
September 2005
August 2005
July 2005
June 2005
May 2005
April 2005
March 2005
February 2005
January 2005
December 2004
November 2004
October 2004
September 2004
August 2004
July 2004
June 2004
May 2004
April 2004
March 2004
February 2004
January 2004
December 2003
November 2003
October 2003
September 2003
August 2003
July 2003
June 2003
May 2003
April 2003
March 2003
February 2003
January 2003
December 2002
November 2002
October 2002
September 2002
August 2002
July 2002
June 2002
May 2002
April 2002
March 2002
February 2002
January 2002
December 2001
November 2001
October 2001
September 2001
August 2001
July 2001
June 2001
May 2001
April 2001
March 2001
February 2001
January 2001
March 1996
February 1996
January 1996
December 1995
November 1995

ATOM RSS1 RSS2



PO.MISSOURI.EDU

Secured by F-Secure Anti-Virus CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager