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TSE  June 2007

TSE June 2007

Subject:

Re: New England Ladies

From:

Nancy Gish <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

T. S. Eliot Discussion forum.

Date:

Fri, 15 Jun 2007 19:19:08 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (159 lines)

No.  That is not the point--or a point.  I suggest you reread the
ending, where he suffers terrible guilt for what he did to her.  She is
young and too committed to sensibility to see what a cad he is, and she
needs to learn more concern for what her self-absorbed distress does to
others.  But what he does is never treated as anything  but extremely
rotten behavior that contributes to her illness.  His guilt is presented
as well deserved; he ends up married to a terrible woman; and Marianne
does recover.  She is never just a "silly goose," a term Austen never
would apply to genuine suffering--only to self-importance and absurdity.
N. 

>>> Kate Troy <[log in to unmask]> 06/15/07 6:31 PM >>>
 
How about Jane Austen?  Wasn't one of the points of Sense and 
Sensibility 
was that Marianne was a silly goose for continuing to believe in the 
man (I 
forget his name at the moment) when he declared his love for her but yet
 didn't 
follow it up with any concrete commitment and he then ditched her and 
married 
elsewhere.
 
In a message dated 6/15/2007 6:06:56 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
[log in to unmask] writes:

As I  said, this is ignoring history, let along psychology.  Or, for 
that
matter, much of any literature of the period or earlier, when he  might
have faced enraged fathers and brothers.  Try Henry James for  some
insight.
N

>>> Kate Troy <[log in to unmask]>  06/15/07 5:39 PM >>>

Some things never change, such as leading  a woman on for years and 
then

ditching her, such as an otherwise  intelligent woman being a silly
goose
about a 
man.  Poor  Tom.  If he was alive today living in England and  Emily in 

America, he would had to deal with cell phones.  Another thing   that
hasn't changed:  
If after a few months of being in love, if  he doesn't  bring up
marriage
or 
at least shacking up, then she  needs to face up to  facts.

In a message dated 6/15/2007 12:26:31  P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
[log in to unmask]  writes:

According to Gordon, "Eliot claimed that before he left for  Europe  in
1914 he told Emily Hale that he was in love with her.   He said that  he
had no reason to believe, from the way in which his  declaration  was
received, that his feelings were returned 'in any  degree whatever'." 
But
they had a relationship:  he sent her roses  via Aiken.  He  kept in
touch
with her when he was in Oxford,  just before he married  Vivien.  And
then
he renewed it with  visits, letters, autographed  copies of his work, a
shared visit to  Burnt Norton that he wrote of as a  moment of
illumination.  And  in 1914 a young lady was expected to be  modest  and
non-expressive.  Not knowing what 1911 has to do with it is   not
knowing
history.  That she sustained the correspondence and   visited him was
more
than an acceptance later.  At any rate, he  made  the avowal of love;
she
had every reason to expect it to mean  what it  said.

Nancy




Yes, saying he was in love  was in effect  a proposal of marriage. Emily
and Tom were both members  of upper-class  Boston families whose
relatives
no doubt knew each  other socially and  perhaps in business as well. The
families would  have been aware of the  situation and so Tom's defection
would have  involved their censure. Emily  had the social code of her
class as  reinforcement for her trust in Eliot.  Diana

Nancy wrote: "As I  said, there is no analogy.  In 1911, if a  man said
he
was in  love,
it was to be trusted.  That was the point  of those  words.  And it is
frankly disgraceful to say that when a man   betrays trust the woman is
just silly.  It is   outrageous.
Nancy"

>>> Kate Troy  <[log in to unmask]>  06/14/07 8:06 PM >>>

By the  way, Nancy, Annette was also a New  England lady.

As I remember,  Annette had a good job and received  promotions, etc.
She

owned a  nice home. Emily waited all of those  years, instead of 
pursuing
her
happiness with a man who wanted to be  with her.   I imagine that Emily
used  to cry
at Christmas and   Thanksgiving and on her birthday, etc., just as
Annette used
to   do.

In a message dated 6/14/2007 7:40:01 P.M. Eastern Daylight   Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:

Emily  Hale was a very   accomplished, intelligent woman who was also a
New
England  lady  in  1911 when she and TSE met--well before the  married
Viv.

When they   started writing and seeing each  other, Viv had been put  in
an
institution.  Hale did not just  meet a married man and  "see"  him.
There
is no analogy at  all.  She was not remotely  silly or    naive.

Nancy





**************************************   See what's free   at
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------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Hotmail   to go? Get your Hotmail, news, sports and much more!  

>>>  Diana Manister <[log in to unmask]>  06/15/07 10:13 AM   >>>







**************************************  See what's free at
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************************************** See what's free at
http://www.aol.com.

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