LISTSERV mailing list manager LISTSERV 16.0

Help for TSE Archives


TSE Archives

TSE Archives


TSE@PO.MISSOURI.EDU


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Proportional Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

TSE Home

TSE Home

TSE  June 2007

TSE June 2007

Subject:

Re: {Disarmed} Re: Of "awful daring"

From:

Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

T. S. Eliot Discussion forum.

Date:

Sat, 16 Jun 2007 04:46:30 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (361 lines)

Interesting. How do you know she had no naivete or was not
silly about matters of the heart. Lots of accomplished, intelligent
people do the silliest things when is comes to love (and hate).
Bill Clinton, a very accomplished and inteligent person with many
admirable qualities seems to have been like the farmer, outstanding
in his field.

P.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Nancy Gish" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 3:38 PM
Subject: Re: {Disarmed} Re: Of "awful daring"


> Emily Hale was a very accomplished, intelligent woman who was also a New
> England lady in 1911 when she and TSE met--well before the married Viv.
> When they started writing and seeing each other, Viv had been put in an
> institution.  Hale did not just meet a married man and "see" him.  There
> is no analogy at all.  She was not remotely silly or naive.
>
> Nancy
>
>
> >>> Kate Troy <[log in to unmask]> 06/14/07 7:24 PM >>>
> As far as love and marriage go, it is best to do what is best for one's
>
> self, as to do otherwise would end up being non-beneficial for all
> involved.
> Perhaps he may have been more sensitive to their feelings, but I  cannot
> help
> thinking that Emily Hale was a very silly woman, believing that he
> after all
> those years he would finally marry her.   I remember that my  mother had
> a pretty
> friend who sometimes hung around the house when I was a  young teenager,
> 14
> or 15 years of age.  Her friend was a bit younger  than herself.  Her
> name was
> Annette.  Annette was probably in her  early 30's at the time. Annette,
> I
> remember, showed up frequently at the house  to chat with my mother.
> They would
> always stop talking when I entered the  room.  My older sister, six
> years
> older, informed me a couple of years  later (when I was a little more
> knowledgeable
> about the world) that Annette  had been seeing a married man for several
>
> years and that our mother had been  trying to persuade her for years to
> discontinue her relationship with this man,  but Annette truly believed
> that this man
> would one day leave his wife and marry  her. I believe that Annette was
> 38 when
> she finally left this man, after 10  years.  She finally realized that
> he
> would never leave his wife and  marry her.  Several months or so after,
> Annette
> met another man and  she fell in love with him, and they married.  I
> don't know
> if they lived  happily ever after, for Annette and her husband moved
> away and
> her and my mom I  think lost touch after a few years.  Emily Hale, I
> believe,
> lacked  self-esteem, self-sufficiency and common sense if she really
> waited
> for Elliot  for 30 years.  Even my mom's pretty little friend, Annette,
> grew up
> after  10 years.
>
> Regards,
>
> Kate
>
>
> In a message dated 6/14/2007 3:42:37 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> [log in to unmask] writes:
>
> I think that what was being addressed was not his comfort but Emily's.
> No doubt he did what he felt was best for  himself.
> Nancy
>
> >>> Kate Troy <[log in to unmask]>  06/14/07 11:10 AM >>>
> No doubt, he was flattered by the attention  and the declarations of
> love
> and devotion from these woman, as unlike Vivian,  he was not attractive,
> outgoing, flirtatious and didn't attract the attention  of women in
> general.  Who can say whether or not he felt anything deeper  than
> friendship for them. Then, add into the mix the question of  his
> homosexuality.  Obviously, the disastrous marriage to Vivian may  have
> made him a bit hesitant to propose marriage again to anybody.  By  the
> time he met Valerie, he was older and he obviously trusted her  greatly
> and found comfort in their  relationship.
>
> Regards,
>
> Kate
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original  Message-----
> From: Nancy Gish <[log in to unmask]>
> To:  [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 7:50 am
> Subject: Re: Of "awful  daring"
>
>
>
> Many people on this list find it a constant need to  idealize him and
> peak of how great he was, etc.  Yet that never seems to  trouble you.
> f praising him is valid, critiqueing him is valid.  You  can't have it
> oth ways.  The alternative is to focus on the poetry  itself, but that
> ever seems the limit.
> Nancy
> >>> Peter  Montgomery <[log in to unmask]> 06/14/07 4:56 AM >>>
> find  this need to judge him at all very curious.
> oap operas and tabloid journalism  never interested me.
> eter
> ---- Original Message ----- 
> rom: "Nancy  Gish" <[log in to unmask]>
> o: <[log in to unmask]>
> ent:  Wednesday, June 13, 2007 5:18 AM
> ubject: Re: Of "awful daring"
>
> It's  Emily, not Nancy Hale and Mary Trevelyan.  And it is not hearsay.
> It is  all documented.  See Gordon.  And 30 years of letters after  a
> ing
> and years of mutual visiting leaves a lot more than time enough to  be
> "up front."
> Nancy
>
> >>> Peter Montgomery  <[log in to unmask]> 06/13/07 3:15 AM >>>
> I can see that  it looks very unfair to Nancy Hale and Mary Trevalyn,
> but it seems for once  he knew where his happiness really lay and he
> chose to go there. It would  have been wrong for him to marry either
> of them ifhe knew it wouldn't work  for him. i can believe he should
> ave
> been more up front about it with  Nancy Hale.
>
> It is one thing to think you want to do something when you  can't,
> and quite another to continue wanting it when you actually can do  it.
> There is a radical change in prespective.
>
> I find this need to  judge him on the basis of hear say rather curious.
>
> Peter
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: Diana  Manister
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Tuesday,  June 12, 2007 6:27 AM
> Subject: Re: Of "awful  daring"
>
>
> Brian, it seems to me that Eliot's leaving Nancy  Hale in America,
> hen
> she and all their acquaintances assumed they would  marry, was a
> owerful
> source of guilt for him all of his life. This reads  like a soap opera,
> but even a genius is tormented by relationships. It seems  almost as if
> his treatment of Hale had a tinge of sadism to it, so cruelly  was she
> tossed aside twice in favor of other women. Repenting his  first
> arriage
> may have included regret over having chosen Viv over Nancy.  In any
> event, he certainly was very aware of his ill-treatment of a woman  who
> loved him all of her life. I think the hyacinth girl has a Nancy  Hale
> component, and the woman in the following poem  especially:
>
> La Figlia Che Piange (The Weeping  Girl)
>
> "...So I would have had him leave,
> So  I would have had her stand and grieve,
> So he would have  left         10
> As the soul leaves the  body torn and bruised,
> As the mind deserts the body it has  used.
> I should find
> Some way incomparably light  and deft,
> Some way we both should understand,     15
> Simple and faithless as a smile and shake  of the hand.
>
> She turned away, but with the autumn  weather
> Compelled my imagination many days,
> Many  days and many hours:
> Her hair over her arms and her arms full of  flowers.         20
> And I wonder how  they should have been together!
> I should have lost a gesture and  a pose.
> Sometimes these cogitations still amaze
> The troubled midnight and the noon's repose.  "
>
> Hale  had a breakdown and was hospitalized after one of Eliot's
> marriages, I forget  which. After Vivienne's death, it seemed they
> ould
> marry after all, but he  again reneged saying "It's too late!" Mary
> Trevelyan in England asked him  several times to marry her after Viv
> died, but he said he had an attachment  to a woman in America, who
> ould
> only have been Nancy Hale. They saw each  other over the years, when
> Eliot was in America and when she came to England.  She accompanied him
> on his visit to places mentioned in 4Qs, and I sometimes  think the
> oor
> not entered and the unseen laughing children refer at least  partly to
> his not having married Hale and had a family.
>
> The events may be public, but guilt is not written in  our
> bituaries.
> Diana
>
>
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -
>
> From:  "O'Sullivan, Brian P"  <[log in to unmask]>
> Reply-To:  "T. S. Eliot  Discussion forum." <[log in to unmask]>
> To:   [log in to unmask]
> Subject:  Re: Of "awful  daring"
> Date:  Mon, 11 Jun 2007 16:48:23  -0400
> I've always imagined that if the "daring moment"  had a
> iographical
> referent, it was something less public and documentable  than what we
> know of his marriage or conversion or change of  national
> affiliation--something "not to be found in our  obituaries."
>
> Brian
>
> Brian  O'Sullivan, Ph.D.
> Assistant Professor of  Englishh
> Director of the Writing Center
> Montgomery Hall 50
> 18952 E. Fisher  Rd.
> St. Mary's College of Maryland
> St. Mary's City, Maryland
> 20686
> 240-895-4242
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: T. S. Eliot  Discussion forum. on behalf of Kate Troy
> Sent: Mon  6/11/2007 4:07 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Of "awful daring"
>
>
> These  lines may not have referred to his marriage.  Perhaps he
> eant
> leaving  America and living his life as a British citizen.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nancy Gish
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Sun, 10 Jun  2007 1:29 pm
> Subject: Re: Off "awful  daring"
>
>
> It need not be either approval or  disapproval but simply fact.  It
> was
> Eliot, after  all, who said that it was better to do evil than to
> o
> nothing because "at least we exist."  (Or it may be "at least  we
> re
> alive"--I just read it but it's not right  here.)  In any case,
> daring
> moments are not very  present in any of the poetry, and when they
> re
> possible, whoever is speaking tends to fail.
>
> It was  not much of a marriage for Viv either, and it was she whose
> life
> never recovered.  He seems to have sustained guilt over that  but
> ot
> to
> have acted on his guilt.
> Nancy
>
> >>> cr mittal  <[log in to unmask]> 06/10/07 1:12 PM >>>
> Diana Manister <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> The awful daring of a moment's surrender
> Which an age of prudence can never retract
>
> CR: I have always seen this as Eliot's way of saying "Marry  in
> haste,
> repent at leisure." Not believing in  divorce, his sudden to
> decision
> to
> marry Viv left him one of their lifetimes in which to  repent.
> Diana
>
>
> I don't think so, Diana.  There's a note of approval, not
> disapproval,
> to the "awful daring of a moment's surrender" in
>
> The awful daring of a moment's surrender
> Which an age of prudence can never retract
> // By  this, and this only, we have existed //
>
> Regards,
>
> CR
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Get  your own web address.
> Have a HUGE year through  Yahoo! Smalll Business.
>
> ________________________________
>
> AOL now offers free  email to everyone. Find out more about what's
> free from AOL at  AOL.com
> http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000437>
> .
>
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---
> Like puzzles? Play free games & earn great prizes. Play Clink  now.
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free  Edition.
> Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.15/847 -  Release Date:
> 6/12/2007 9:42 PM
>
>
> -- 
> No virus found in this  incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.472 / Virus  Database: 269.8.15/847 - Release Date:
> /12/2007
> :42 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ************************************** See what's free at
> http://www.aol.com.
>
>
> -- 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.17/850 - Release Date: 6/15/2007
11:31 AM
>
>

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

Advanced Options


Options

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password


Search Archives

Search Archives


Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe


Archives

June 2021
May 2021
April 2021
March 2021
February 2021
January 2021
December 2020
November 2020
October 2020
September 2020
August 2020
July 2020
June 2020
May 2020
April 2020
March 2020
February 2020
January 2020
December 2019
November 2019
October 2019
September 2019
August 2019
July 2019
June 2019
May 2019
April 2019
March 2019
February 2019
January 2019
December 2018
November 2018
October 2018
September 2018
August 2018
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
April 2018
March 2018
February 2018
January 2018
December 2017
November 2017
October 2017
September 2017
August 2017
July 2017
June 2017
May 2017
April 2017
March 2017
February 2017
January 2017
December 2016
November 2016
October 2016
September 2016
August 2016
July 2016
June 2016
May 2016
April 2016
March 2016
February 2016
January 2016
December 2015
November 2015
October 2015
September 2015
August 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
July 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
November 2013
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
May 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
October 2006
September 2006
August 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006
April 2006
March 2006
February 2006
January 2006
December 2005
November 2005
October 2005
September 2005
August 2005
July 2005
June 2005
May 2005
April 2005
March 2005
February 2005
January 2005
December 2004
November 2004
October 2004
September 2004
August 2004
July 2004
June 2004
May 2004
April 2004
March 2004
February 2004
January 2004
December 2003
November 2003
October 2003
September 2003
August 2003
July 2003
June 2003
May 2003
April 2003
March 2003
February 2003
January 2003
December 2002
November 2002
October 2002
September 2002
August 2002
July 2002
June 2002
May 2002
April 2002
March 2002
February 2002
January 2002
December 2001
November 2001
October 2001
September 2001
August 2001
July 2001
June 2001
May 2001
April 2001
March 2001
February 2001
January 2001
March 1996
February 1996
January 1996
December 1995
November 1995

ATOM RSS1 RSS2



PO.MISSOURI.EDU

Secured by F-Secure Anti-Virus CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager