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TSE  April 2006

TSE April 2006

Subject:

Re: 'Tyger' and 'Vrka' (Was: 'Mind forged menacles' (sic) and spelling )

From:

Tabitha Arnesen <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

T. S. Eliot Discussion forum.

Date:

Sat, 8 Apr 2006 12:58:54 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (232 lines)

" Dare we let ordinary people take back the language
for themselves?  
Guess what? It doesn't matter. They're doing it
anyway."

What?  Have the evil academics somehow been oppressing
people again??  viva la change!  

And dont you find the way that pages in books are all
so constrively stuck together really really bad, like
a sign of the coming apocalypse of evil??? 
Bookbinders and publishers have an evil cartel so that
we can only ever read the pages of books in one
"arbitrary" order decreed by university department
elitists!!!  Its a straitjacket for our minds!!!  The
"ordinary people" must unite to destroy this mind
manacles of menace!!!!


--- Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> What's wrong with being wrong? Seems rather
> unfortunate to
> me to avoid speculation based on what one knows,
> just to
> avoid being wrong. Since lives on being wrong.
> 
> Why do there need to be rules for variation?
> What is wrong with open-ended exploration?
> If the written language in all its incredible
> variations and
> off-shooots could last for a millenium without a
> lexicon,
> why does it need one now, after only three
> centuries?
> 
> Conventions are not the same things as standards.
> An e on the end or not is irrelevant. A double
> consonant
> is irrelevant. The demands of sound would be the
> guide,
> not the demands of the lexicon.
> 
> Chaucer can seem pretty difficult when first
> experienced as
> writing, but once the oral dimension is introduced,
> all the little
> pfennigs tend to drop into place.
> 
> Seems pretty straightforward to me.
> 
> Is there a fear of loss of power through loss of
> control here?
> Dare we let ordinary people take back the language
> for themselves?
> Guess what? It doesn't matter. They're doing it
> anyway.
> 
> P.
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Nancy Gish" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 9:23 PM
> Subject: 'Tyger' and 'Vrka' (Was: 'Mind forged
> menacles' (sic) and
> spelling )
> 
> 
> I don't know the answer to your question because it
> has been too long since
> I studied Anglo-Saxon, and I would not go by the
> texts I have since they may
> be too dated.  I only know that at the time we were
> required on exams to
> place texts by geography and date on the basis of
> spelling and lexicon, and
> we were given only a few lines at a time.  That does
> not suggest wide
> variation in individuals.  And I do not "suspect"
> anything because it is a
> matter of linguistic history which could be checked
> to the extent that we
> have texts, not just opinion.
> 
> In any case, our disagreement is over the notion
> itself that there is
> anything particularly individually creative or
> freeing about spelling by
> personal choice.  I see nothing freeing about it: 
> as others have well
> stated, it is only by contrast to a standard that
> any variation has effect.
> If there is only random variation, there is no way
> to make distinctive
> effects and thus no particular free creativity
> either.
> 
> I pointed out that TWL is all in standard spelling,
> but of course there is
> the one variation of "that "Shakespeherian Rag." 
> The impact of that is due
> to its difference from "Shakespearean" and its
> syncopated rhythm.  (One can
> do a triple time swing step to the whole phrase, and
> Eliot apparently liked
> to dance though Vivienne did not think he was all
> that good at it.)
> 
> You said in another post that no one is talking
> about just random spelling
> variation, but you have not described or defined any
> form of structured or
> meaningful or limited variation.  Whatever is "the
> point"?  What, other than
> pronouncements of personal opinion, supports your
> "point"?
> Cheers
> 
> >>> [log in to unmask] 04/07/06 8:00 PM >>>
> Is the spelling consistent within each of those
> different varieties?
> I suspect the spelling is individual enough that one
> can attribute
> common authorship of texts to certain writers.
> 
> Just think what would have happened if one of the
> kings had decreed
> a common spelling system for all the areas. All that
> fascinating variety
> would have been lost. Thanks to Noah Webster's
> chauvinistic arbitrariness
> we can now distinguish some U.S. from British
> spellings. How interesting it
> would be if we could distinguish regional texts in
> North Aremica. As it is
> we're stuck with sterile conformity. Colin Dexter of
> Inspector Morse
> fame, has his hero declaring U.S text as misspelled.
> An interesting bit
> of cultural heritage. Obviously he and I would have
> something to
> talk about if I ever made it to the home of the
> twilight of the British
> gods.
> 
> P.
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Nancy Gish" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 7:59 PM
> Subject: Re: 'Tyger' and 'Vrka' (Was: 'Mind forged
> menacles' (sic) and
> spelling )
> 
> 
> Which Anglo-Saxon othography?  Northumbrian?
> Mercian? West Saxon? Kentish?
> Why can we tell them apart?  Why do many spellings
> remain the same today in
> Scotland (like a for o)?  Why is it possible to
> place an Anglo-Saxon text
> within specific geographic areas and within about 50
> years if there was no
> standard?
> 
> It is not emotion.
> Cheers
> 
> >>> [log in to unmask] 04/06/06 8:02 PM >>>
> My goodness, such personal remarks!!!
> Naughty, naughty, naughty. Seems I provoke
> emotion from you no matter what. Why do you
> give my remarks attention if you have so little
> regard for them?
> 
> Also, my apologies for the multiple mail testings.
> My ISP had a mail breakdown. Some of my mail was
> getting through
> but I was getting error messages saying it wasn't
> getting through.
> I believe the problem is fixed.
> 
> Also, why is there not an outrage at the use of the
> name of God,
> such as there was when I quite innocently used the
> word doxy as
> an abbreviation for orthodoxy? (I had never read the
> Jack the
> Ripper lit, which, I gather, made the
> doxy/prostitute connection
> so noteable).
> 
> As to the matter in hand, given the kinds of
> response that
> my application of Blake to yet one more social
> stricture evoked,
> I suspect I have touched a nerve.
> 
> There are always Houdinis who can manipulate and
> sqirm out
> of a set of manacles. So, of course we of the
> literary and artistic
> elite can manipulate grammar, spelling and meaning
> six ways
> from Sunday. It is the regular users of language,
> the Joe and
> Jane six-packs (as I have heard them called on US
> tv) who are not
> particularly conscious of how they have been
> conditioned to
> this particular social stricture, and so are
> confined by convention,
> such that they are inhibited from orthographic
> creativity, or don't even
> realise they can make the language work to their own
> ends,
> about whom I am concerned. Electronic culture is,
> naturally,
> breaking down such conventions rather drastically, a
> factor which
> I applaud.
> 
=== message truncated ===



	
	
		
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