LISTSERV mailing list manager LISTSERV 16.0

Help for TSE Archives


TSE Archives

TSE Archives


TSE@PO.MISSOURI.EDU


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Monospaced Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

TSE Home

TSE Home

TSE  April 2006

TSE April 2006

Subject:

Re: 'Mind forged mAnacles'

From:

Vishvesh Obla <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

T. S. Eliot Discussion forum.

Date:

Mon, 3 Apr 2006 05:58:35 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (190 lines)

'And--just out of curiosity, why be mean-spirited to
Carroll just
because
he knows something about Chaucer that is relevant to
this topic?'

Nancy,

I wish you ask this question to Carroll as well. I
readily admit that I am an amateur of amateurs and
that my comments on Chaucer are my personal reactions
(It could be my assumption when I said that Chaucer's
fluidity arose from the liberties he took in his usage
of the language). I don't like the tone of commenting
with your nose up in the air to make a point. I come
here to re-live and reflect upon some of the glorious
moments I have had with English Literature (if not
with T.S.Eliot alone). I cannot resist giving it back
when it comes to a sparring. With Carroll, it is a
long time affair and I enjoy doing it !

--- Nancy Gish <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> First, I have not been reading this thread: is
> "menacles" a joke in a
> discussion of spelling or did I miss some point?
>
> Second, consistent spelling DOES have value. There
> is no difference
> between thyme and tyme except one letter. But
> "parsley, sage, rosemary
> and tyme" would be a very different thing from the
> actual lyric, even
> acknowledging the aural sameness. There is no
> difference between cat
> and cot except one letter and a different vowel
> sound. But if a dog
> caught a cot, it would be pretty stupid. There is
> a great difference
> between couth and couthy--because of the y.
> Spelling is arbitrary; so
> are words, phonemes, morphemes, phrases, sentences.
> All that makes them
> mean anything is an agreement on what we mean. So
> there was immense
> value in codifying spelling so everyone who could
> read would have a key
> to meaning. To treat it as some constriction of
> originality or
> individuality is to miss the structure of writing,
> and it has nothing to
> do with "rigidity."
>
> An interesting counter example is Scots, which does
> not have a
> nation-wide standard spelling because of its
> exclusion, denigration, and
> removal from schools for centuries. So it is often
> phonetically spelled
> and varies among writers. The value of that is that
> Scots also varies
> in words and pronunciation and rhythm throughout
> Scotland, so anyone
> will recognize phonetic Glaswegian if they can
> understand Glaswegian
> (most English speakers cannot at first). But it
> also means that the
> readership is limited beyond Scotland and sometimes
> within.
>
> But since English has not had that divergence into
> many VERY different
> dialects, just spelling as one chooses does not
> represent anything
> meaningful unless it is a specific and sometimes
> idiosyncratic way of
> representing, as in some of Pound or in e.e.
> cummings (and then it is
> mainly words run together or archaic). If everyone
> did it, those
> versions would cease to have any significance also
> because their
> significance depends on everyone recognizing the
> deviation from
> standard.
>
> So I do not even see the point of this discussion:
> it has nothing at
> all to do with language value or possibility for
> distinctive
> representation. All the words in TWL, for example,
> are in standard
> spelling. But amazingly the poem was taken for a
> totally new and
> individual voice anyway.
>
> Consistent spelling is in no way rigid, and it loses
> nothing. In
> English what makes the most potential for
> originality is either syntax
> or lexicon, not spelling. For example, there is a
> great difference
> between "so sweet and so cold" and "i shudder when I
> think of the cold
> Irish earth." Nothing would be gained by a
> different spelling of
> "cold." (In Scots it would be "cauld," but then it
> would not be the
> English spelling and would suggest some Scottish
> implication: it would
> still be a standard--not individual--spelling. And
> then it might also
> mean a weir on a river or or, as a verb, to dam a
> river.) But this
> variability is based in the history of Scots. It is
> not the same
> history as English. I do not see anything at all on
> which your "case"
> rests.
>
> And--just out of curiosity, why be mean-spirited to
> Carroll just because
> he knows something about Chaucer that is relevant to
> this topic?
> Nancy
>
> >>> [log in to unmask] 03/31/06 11:23 AM >>>
> Okay, Mr.Carroll, Thank you for your education !
>
> 'The very first thing
> to learn in reading Chaucer is that his English AND
> his spelling are,
> as
> you say "orthodox," though that is a peculiar word
> to
> use of language.'
>
> I didn't say 'orthodox'. You said. I merely quoted
> it ! Please see your earlier email on this same
> subject.
>
> I don't care if language needs to be orthodox or
> formal or anything of that kind for me to appreciate
> poetry.
>
> The point I wished to emphasize was that with a
> rigid
> spelling we seem to lose something that carry deeper
> associations of the word. I rest my case there.
>
>
> --- Carrol Cox <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> > Vishvesh Obla wrote:
> > >
> > > I don't know if the passage I quoted below was
> > > 'orthodox' usage of English in Chaucer's time,
> >
> > Well then, you don't know anything about Chaucer.
> > The very first thing
> > to learn in reading Chaucer is that his English
> AND
> > his spelling are, as
> > you say "orthodox," though that is a peculiar word
> > to use of language.
> > Chaucer wrote STANDARD English of his time and
> > region. "Tyme" has TWO
> > syllables. If you don't recognize that, then you
> > can't recognize that
> > Chaucer writes standard iambic pentameter.
> >
> > It wasn't spelling that changed. The LANGUAGE
> > changed.
> >
> > Carrol
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

Advanced Options


Options

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password


Search Archives

Search Archives


Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe


Archives

November 2021
October 2021
September 2021
August 2021
July 2021
June 2021
May 2021
April 2021
March 2021
February 2021
January 2021
December 2020
November 2020
October 2020
September 2020
August 2020
July 2020
June 2020
May 2020
April 2020
March 2020
February 2020
January 2020
December 2019
November 2019
October 2019
September 2019
August 2019
July 2019
June 2019
May 2019
April 2019
March 2019
February 2019
January 2019
December 2018
November 2018
October 2018
September 2018
August 2018
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
April 2018
March 2018
February 2018
January 2018
December 2017
November 2017
October 2017
September 2017
August 2017
July 2017
June 2017
May 2017
April 2017
March 2017
February 2017
January 2017
December 2016
November 2016
October 2016
September 2016
August 2016
July 2016
June 2016
May 2016
April 2016
March 2016
February 2016
January 2016
December 2015
November 2015
October 2015
September 2015
August 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
July 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
November 2013
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
May 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
October 2006
September 2006
August 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006
April 2006
March 2006
February 2006
January 2006
December 2005
November 2005
October 2005
September 2005
August 2005
July 2005
June 2005
May 2005
April 2005
March 2005
February 2005
January 2005
December 2004
November 2004
October 2004
September 2004
August 2004
July 2004
June 2004
May 2004
April 2004
March 2004
February 2004
January 2004
December 2003
November 2003
October 2003
September 2003
August 2003
July 2003
June 2003
May 2003
April 2003
March 2003
February 2003
January 2003
December 2002
November 2002
October 2002
September 2002
August 2002
July 2002
June 2002
May 2002
April 2002
March 2002
February 2002
January 2002
December 2001
November 2001
October 2001
September 2001
August 2001
July 2001
June 2001
May 2001
April 2001
March 2001
February 2001
January 2001
March 1996
February 1996
January 1996
December 1995
November 1995

ATOM RSS1 RSS2



PO.MISSOURI.EDU

Secured by F-Secure Anti-Virus CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager