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TSE  April 2006

TSE April 2006

Subject:

Re: (OT) Towards a speech of the machine ...

From:

Vishvesh Obla <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

T. S. Eliot Discussion forum.

Date:

Wed, 12 Apr 2006 05:29:52 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (239 lines)

Dear CR,

I was surprised by that statement 'The most distinct
and beautiful statements of any truth must take at
last the mathematical form'. I haven't read anything
by Thoreau but I wouldn't agree with a statement as
that.  'one formula would express them both' ? I was
simply bowled over, if I can use that phrase in a
context you are fond of :)  Ken has replied to it
nicely.  

Yes, that passage reflects what I was trying to say
(though I would’t accept it).  Thank you for digging
it out. I would like to read in what context it was
used.  If you know it, would you please let me know?
(I mean Thoreau's essay in which the quote appears and
not the URL you have made a note of).

That expressions through language tend to become
radically different by the technogical bent of the
modern mind, is my concern here.  It may be
inevitable, but I believe one should be able to see
through it to have a sense of what *language* is
capable of, through its other possibilities.  



--- cr mittal <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Dear Vishvesh,
>    
>   Here's a learned opinion that exactly matches
> yours:
>    
>     We have heard much about the poetry of
> mathematics,
>   but very little of it has as yet been sung. The
> ancients 
>   had a juster notion of their poetic value than we.
> The most
>   distinct and beautiful statements of any truth
> must take 
>   at last the mathematical form. We might so
> simplify the 
>   rules of moral philosophy, as well as of
> arithmetic, that one
>   formula would express them both. 
>    
>                                                     
>        -- H.D. Thoreau
>         
>   In this context I found it exceedingly interesting
> to come upon this:
>    
>   Stange, Kate. "Mathematical Poetry: A Small
> Anthology." URL:
> http://katherinestange.com/mathweb/index.html
>   (A collection of poems dealing directly or
> indirectly with mathematics)
> 
>    
>   Cheers!
>    
>   ~ CR
>    
>   
> 
> Vishvesh Obla <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>   'Computer programming bears much more relation to
> language than it does to maths'
> 
> 'if year++ then age ++, the expression is _not_
> mathematical; it is language.'
> 
> 'Whether it
> is good poetry or bad poetry is a separate question,
> but if you are
> going to call it either math or poetry, the correct
> label is poetry'
> 
> 
> These three passages one from Tabitha, and two from
> Carroll, struck me. I too think it is ‘language’
> than
> ‘mathematics’, but language permeated by the
> mathematical process. Just as one could call a
> theorem as sheer poetry by the beauty of its
> elucidatory nature of a complex mechanism (Ramanujan
> often said that he found God whenever he wrote a new
> theorem!), I think one could call the code that I
> quoted as poetry for its astonishing clarity of the
> *idea* (the 'year' and 'age' have a natural
> relation,
> which is not mathematical alone). My concern about
> this is centered on a communication that could be
> radically different from the way mankind has used
> language hitherto. There is a distinct difference in
> the usage. For, the element of ‘suggestion’ that is
> vital for language to be *creative* though it
> creates
> bizarre associations is one factor, and an important
> one at that, is compromised.
> 
> 
> --- Tabitha Arnesen 
> wrote:
> 
> > No i would say that in general maths and language
> > are
> > completely unrelated. As a physicist I have met
> > many
> > other scientists who were brilliant at maths,
> > infinitely better than myself, and completely
> > useless
> > at essay writing, even science reports, which you
> > would think would not present too much of a
> language
> > challange.
> > 
> > I also know a very clever girl who can speak
> several
> > languages, and pick up a new one in a few weeks. 
> > She
> > is however completely useless at maths, and only
> > just
> > scraped by her GCSE (very basic).
> > 
> > Computer programming bears much more relation to
> > language than it does to maths.
> > 
> > 
> > --- Peter Montgomery wrote:
> > 
> > > Just because they may happen in different parts
> of
> > > the brain, does not
> > > mean they are unrelated. All kinds of
> > cross-currents
> > > of patterning,
> > > analogous top analogies are possible.
> > > 
> > > P.
> > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > From: "Carrol Cox" 
> > > To: 
> > > Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 12:50 PM
> > > Subject: Re: (OT) Towards a speech of the
> machine
> > > ...
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > Tom Gray wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Knowledge beyond the trivial is beyond the
> > scope
> > > of mathematics.
> > > > 
> > > > We are learning a great deal through the
> > 'miracle'
> > > of MRI. One highly
> > > > interesting bit of knowledge recently gained
> > from
> > > it is that the part of
> > > > the brain that processes mathematics is _not_
> > the
> > > part of the brain that
> > > > processes language.
> > > > 
> > > > One of the things that follows from this is
> that
> > > it probably doesn't
> > > > make a lot of sense to argue over whether the
> > > knowledge from mathematics
> > > > is greater or lesser than knowledge processed
> > > through language. They are
> > > > simply different.
> > > > 
> > > > But the distinction between mathematics and
> > > language (or poetry) is not
> > > > relevant to if year++ then age ++, because
> > > actually as it stands in
> > > > Vishvesh's post (or even as part of the
> > > conversation between him and his
> > > > wife), the expression is _not_ mathematical;
> it
> > is
> > > language. Whether it
> > > > is good poetry or bad poetry is a separate
> > > question, but if you are
> > > > going to call it either math or poetry, the
> > > correct label is poetry.
> > > > 
> > > > Carrol
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > -- 
> > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > > > Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.0/304
> -
> > > Release Date: 4/7/2006
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >
>
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> 
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=== message truncated ===


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