LISTSERV mailing list manager LISTSERV 16.0

Help for TSE Archives


TSE Archives

TSE Archives


TSE@PO.MISSOURI.EDU


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Proportional Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

TSE Home

TSE Home

TSE  September 2005

TSE September 2005

Subject:

Re: Pope and Eliot

From:

Will Gray <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

T. S. Eliot Discussion forum.

Date:

Thu, 15 Sep 2005 13:57:12 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (124 lines)

Marcia,
     Sorry for the dramatic pause. I had to go looking
for my paper & notes so I didn't state anything
spurious. I will not presume that anyone on the list
cares about an exhaustive catalog, so I'll list some
categories, with a couple specifics in each. If you'd
like more info on any of them, please ask and I'll be
happy to provide it (to the best of my ability).

Similarities between Pope's THE RAPE OF THE LOCK and
Eliot's THE WASTE LAND:
1. Surface similarities (5 sections, notes became
famous commentary linked to its poem, mock-epic
moments, games of cards, motif of hair, nymphs,
initial warning that goes unheeded, interruption by a
dog, description of a lady's toilet - deleted in TWL,
a half rape, actions of mealtime, knights, the
one-eyed man, narratorial words to the reader, music
along the waters, epigraph as reversal, references to
time, parody of earlier works, each poem has 2 extant
"versions")
2. Similarities in theme (violated women, lust without
love, abandoned tradition, irreversible change, lack
of communication, the "Vision at the Beginning" and
"the Transformation at the End," the quest)
3. Similarities in composition (previous well-known
sources form the basis for understanding, Pope's
zeugma vs. Eliot's juxtaposition, works from an actual
incident - Fermor family for Pope and Eliot's marriage
- and speaks to larger issues, Pope's idea of "mutual
commerce" is a famous predecessor of Eliot's idea of
"tradition")

Of course, Eliot had a lot to say about Pope, even
though he had much more to say about Dryden. Here are
some highlights:
1. C. Ricks finds debts to Pope is several poems from
INVENTIONS OF THE MARCH HARE
2. "Reflections on Vers Libre": he compliments Pope's
facility with heroic couplets
3. "Andrew Marvell": he labels Pope "the great master
of hatred"
4. Letter to JM Murray (22 April 1921): in the list of
"all the critical prose I shall ever want to do" is "A
seventeenth Century volume to Pope with a Nachblick at
Colins and Johnson." I believe, and briefly attempt to
prove that Eliot saw Pope as an exception to the 17th
century's "dissociation of sensibility," which is why
he would end this volume here. 
5. Letter to R Aldington (16 Sept 1921) Part of the
above argument included a phrase from this letter: "if
English verse had not gone to pieces in the Eighteenth
Century after Pope (with reservations) and never
recovered the Seventeenth Century poets might be taken
quite naturally and without quaintness." Of course,
comparing these letters, and thoughts from "The
Metaphysical Poets," we can tell that the 18th
century's "reservations" could be Collins and Johnson.
6. Intro to SELECTED POEMS BY EZRA POUND: "The man who
cannot enjoy Pope as poetry probably understands no
poetry" (18).

A couple of the more interesting critical links I
found:
1. Kristiaan Versluys suggests that both poems are
mock-epics (Dutch Quarterly Review of Anglo-American
Letters, 1990: 3-18).
2. Biographer TS Matthews directly compares Eliot to
Pope twice: once claiming that "Nothing quite like
Eliot's tone of voice had been known (in English, at
any rate) since Alexander Pope: a tone of smooth and
balanced paradox, dryness and intensity, gravity and
wit, compact of phrases lucid and memorable as a
slogan, dark as an unfamiliar proverb, enigmatic,
intricate, unaccountably stirring (GREAT TOM 189).
Elsewhere in his biography Matthews claims that Eliot
is "the finest poet of his kind since Alexander Pope'
(193).
3. Geoffrey Tillotson, in his introduction to THE RAPE
OF THE LOCK in EIGHTEENTH CENTURY ENGLISH LITERATURE:
"Pope...made his poem more than a course of mockery.
He enriched it with at least as many kinds of poetry
as Eliot used in THE WASTE LAND, which resembles
Pope's poem in length, comprehensiveness,
concentration, learning, brilliance, and, especially,
sensuous beauty" (567).

As overwhelming as all of this is, these are merely
the surface connections that I found in a couple
hundred hours between the two. There's certainly
enough for a book here, in my opinion, or for several
more papers. Mine was only meant to be an
introduction, and much of the above content I was only
able to allude to.

Best wishes,
Will

--- Marcia Karp <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Will Gray wrote:
> 
> >For
> >instance, I think he may have gotten the idea for
> >"notes" from Pope's five-part mock-epic "The Rape
> of
> >the Lock," which is similar to TWL in more than 1
> way.
> >
> Will,
>     Would you say more about the similarities
> between "The Rape of the 
> the Lock" and "The Waste Land"? 
> 
> Best,
> Marcia
> 



		
__________________________________ 
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 
http://mail.yahoo.com

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

Advanced Options


Options

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password


Search Archives

Search Archives


Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe


Archives

September 2018
August 2018
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
April 2018
March 2018
February 2018
January 2018
December 2017
November 2017
October 2017
September 2017
August 2017
July 2017
June 2017
May 2017
April 2017
March 2017
February 2017
January 2017
December 2016
November 2016
October 2016
September 2016
August 2016
July 2016
June 2016
May 2016
April 2016
March 2016
February 2016
January 2016
December 2015
November 2015
October 2015
September 2015
August 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
July 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
November 2013
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
May 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
October 2006
September 2006
August 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006
April 2006
March 2006
February 2006
January 2006
December 2005
November 2005
October 2005
September 2005
August 2005
July 2005
June 2005
May 2005
April 2005
March 2005
February 2005
January 2005
December 2004
November 2004
October 2004
September 2004
August 2004
July 2004
June 2004
May 2004
April 2004
March 2004
February 2004
January 2004
December 2003
November 2003
October 2003
September 2003
August 2003
July 2003
June 2003
May 2003
April 2003
March 2003
February 2003
January 2003
December 2002
November 2002
October 2002
September 2002
August 2002
July 2002
June 2002
May 2002
April 2002
March 2002
February 2002
January 2002
December 2001
November 2001
October 2001
September 2001
August 2001
July 2001
June 2001
May 2001
April 2001
March 2001
February 2001
January 2001
March 1996
February 1996
January 1996
December 1995
November 1995

ATOM RSS1 RSS2



PO.MISSOURI.EDU

Secured by F-Secure Anti-Virus CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager