Some of the more similar lines In TWL were cut at
Pound's suggestion. They remain in the manuscript,
though, at the beginning of "The Fire Sermon" section.
Here's one section:
"This ended, to the steaming bath she moves,
Her tresses fanned by little flutt'ring Loves;
Odours, confected by the cunning French,
Disguise the good old female stench" (alt: "hearty
This can be found on page 23 of THE WASTE LAND
Of course, other than this "Fresca" section in TWL,
there are other bits in his poetry, too. I'm assuming
Jim would like to answer this, since the question is
really directed to him. Jim?
--- Vishvesh Obla <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> ' I see echoes of Swift in TSE's image of women: for
> instance both of them were bothered by the fact that
> women had bodily functions '
> I remember a stanza from Swift that Lawrence quoted
> often which went like this:
> 'but celia s***s...' (to rhyme with spits)
> Can't remember a similar kind of repulsion in Eliot
> though ! Can you throw some light?
> --- "Loucks, James" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > Hi Ken, -- It's been entertaining to see the
> > brouhaha over the last decade over TSE, involving
> > it did M. Hastings, Tom Paulin, Raine, et al. I
> > think it was a salutary thing because it aired
> > issues that had been lurking and needed to be
> > including TSE's alleged misogyny.
> > Speaking of which, I see echoes of Swift in TSE's
> > image of women: for instance both of them were
> > bothered by the fact that women had bodily
> > (Swift once mentioned "periodic filth," if I
> > correctly). Maybe Swift, like TSE, suffered from
> > horror feminae?
> > I think more needs to be done with TDE's links
> > Augustan figures such as Swift and Pope (whose
> > couplets were "pastiched" in the TWL Ms.). --
> > James Loucks, Ph.D.
> > Ohio State University-Newark
> > 1179 University Dr.
> > Newark, OH 43055-1797
> > [log in to unmask]
> > 740.366.9423
> > fax 740.366.5047
> > ________________________________
> > From: T. S. Eliot Discussion forum. on behalf of
> > Armstrong
> > Sent: Sun 11-Sep-05 6:11 PM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Craig Raine (was Re: Echoes of Eliot)
> > Jim,
> > Thanks for this reference to Raine. I took my
> > "free time" and went
> > directly to the library to scope out his _In
> > of T S Eliot_. Who
> > could resist that title, at least on this list?
> > not sure in what way he
> > is arch in his defence of TSE -- it all seemed
> > rather measured and calm
> > (and witty--hope that doesn't mean he's a neocon!
> > ) -- but he does have
> > the merits of being logical and factual to a
> > Very enjoyable. And in
> > the often-thought-but-ne'er-so-well-expressed
> > he's read my mind and
> > better said it on C. Ricks. His piece on Salinger
> > and _Catcher in the Rye_
> > shone real light, too. A pleasure to meet Mr.
> > Cheers,
> > Ken A.
> > At 12:11 PM 9/10/2005, you wrote:
> > >Kate -- I think Kathleen Raine got into religious
> > verse in her later years
> > >(or am I thinking of another woman poet?). Do you
> > know if she is related
> > >to Craig Raine, an arch-defender of TSE? -- Jim
> > Loucks
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