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TSE  July 2005

TSE July 2005

Subject:

Re: On Character, was Re: "the king my father's death..."

From:

Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

T. S. Eliot Discussion forum.

Date:

Mon, 25 Jul 2005 23:03:26 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (301 lines)

Fascinating line CR. I like it a lot. I don't know if one can
justify such a union of T. and A. in TWL to the extent you
have, but it is sure worth working through.

BTW, the gashouse isn't all that far from the Isle of Dogs, in case that 
helps.

Cheers,
Peter
CR Mittal wrote:

> *An extension of the allusion to “the king my father…”*
>
> I’m sorry to revive the topic again. But I wished to share a further 
> insight.
>
> In TWL, Tiresias lives through the agony of Antigone, musing upon the 
> king her brother Polynices’ wreck as well as upon the king her father 
> Oedipus’s death before him. Tiresius’s vision, however, commences by 
> doting on Prince Ferdinand’s grief for his father in ‘The Tempest’. 
> But it brings to his vision another grief, that of Antigone musing the 
> loss of a father and a brother (Oedipus and Polynices).
>
> And this in view of the fact that there was no end to Antigone’s wail 
> when she sighted the corpse of her brother Polynices, “unburied, by 
> the dogs and vultures mangled, foul to look upon” – it was indeed a 
> “wreck” (in an extended sense of the word). To quote from the play 
> ‘Antigone’:
>
> So she, when she beholds the corpse all stript,
>
> Groaned loud with many moanings.
>
> ~ CR
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
> >Reply-To: "T. S. Eliot Discussion forum." <[log in to unmask]>
> >To: [log in to unmask]
> >Subject: Re: On Character, was Re: "the king my father's death..."
> >Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 20:34:15 -0700
> >
> >The King my brother has a wreck, not a death.
> >In the Tempest it is The King my Father.
> >
> >The point about Antigone is interesting because old Uncle Oeddy
> >is both her father and her brother. The is reminiscent of Eliot's
> >comment about Tiresis in the notes.
> >
> >Peter
> >
> >CR Mittal wrote:
> >
> >>Thanks, Peter, for your valuable comment aboutTiresias. I'm sorry
> >>I needed time for things to settle down in my mind. To resume, this
> >>is in reply to your *"*It only applies if one can say that the
> >>speaker or the kings in TWL connect with Oedipus. How? "The king my
> >>brother" is a challenge.*"*
> >>
> >>I'm afraid I was misunderstood. Of course, there is no allusion to
> >>Oedipus in 'The Tempest', as Jennifer inferred. I was not
> >>connecting Oedipus to the voice in TWL but Antigone*. * For in the
> >>death of Oedipus, it was Antigone who had lost both a brother and a
> >>father. So, in effect, I was only transposing the contexts, that of
> >>Prince Ferdinand in 'The Tempest' with that of Antigone in 'Oedipus
> >>at Colonus'. It was this possible use of lines from one context in
> >>another that I wished to highlight in my quotation from Guy Story
> >>Brown who spoke of "different perspectives and voices".
> >>
> >>Regards.
> >>
> >>CR
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> >From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
> >> >Reply-To: "T. S. Eliot Discussion forum." <[log in to unmask]>
> >> >To: [log in to unmask]
> >> >Subject: Re: On Character, was Re: "the king my father's
> >>death..."
> >> >Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 01:31:32 -0700
> >> >
> >> >I'm pretty much of the same mind, but there is the fact that
> >> >Tiresias himself did play a role in OE.R. And there were Kings
> >> >involved.
> >> >It only applies if one can say that the speaker or the kings in
> >>TWL
> >> >connect with Oedipus. How?
> >> >
> >> >"The king my brother" is a challenge.
> >> >
> >> >Peter
> >> >
> >> >Nancy Gish wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>Dear Jennifer,
> >> >>
> >> >>I certainly did not write that. CR did, and I wrote to say the
> >> >>same
> >> >>thing you just did--there is no reason to connect Oedipus and
> >>the
> >> >>Tempest.
> >> >>
> >> >;>The message below from CR is presumably an answer to me. But of
> >> >>course
> >> >>I do not see that the blending of characters in Eliot entails
> >>the
> >> >>notion
> >> >>that any possible character with some parallel quality can just
> >>be
> >> >>inserted. That was my point in quoting Gertrude to Hamlet.
> >> >>
> >> >>In any case, please don't attribute the notion below to me.
> >> >>
> >> >>On the other hand, I agree in general about "characters," but
> >>there
> >> >>are
> >> >>some. I think Sweeney is a "character" even outside "Sweeney
> >> >>Agonistes." And I think Lil and her interlocutor are
> >>"characters."
> >> >>Perhaps the point is that at times Eliot's poems are dramatic or
> >> >>have
> >> >>dramatic sections, as "A Game of Chess" is.
> >> >>
> >> >>Cheers,
> >> >>Nancy
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>>>>[log in to unmask] 07/20/05 5:07 PM >>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>CR,
> >> >>
> >> >>What do you mean by Eliot's characters? I wouldn't go
> >> >>so far as to say he creates any characters in his
> >> >>poems (the creation of character taking place more
> >> >>often in drama or novels). Would you? If so, why &
> >> >>how? I think this omission, or the shadowing of
> >> >>character, is part of the essential effect of many of
> >> >>Eliot's poems. Where he takes characters from
> >> >>literature or history, such as Tiresias, that is
> >> >>another matter, and one that can be explored along
> >> >>with his approximations to the dramatic monologue and
> >> >>Eliot's remarks upon it in 'The Three Voices of
> >> >>Poetry', 1953.
> >> >>
> >> >>On another note: unless I am mistaken, Nancy wrote a
> >> >>while back on Oedipus being brought into TWL in the
> >> >>lines around 'Musing upon the king my father's death'.
> >> >>Why? Where is the evidence that an allusion to Oedipus
> >> >>underlies that to Ferdinand in The Tempest? There is
> >> >>no allusion to Oedipus in The Tempest, I think.
> >> >>
> >> >>Yours, Jennifer --- CR Mittal <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>----------------------------------
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>In Eliot's poetry, expressions derived from one
> >> >>context
> >> >>
> >> >>are often used in another context where they gain in
> >> >>intensity
> >> >>
> >> >>and meaning. Likewise, his characters subsume several
> >> >>others.
> >> >>
> >> >>As the poet observed in the Notes to TWL, "Just as the
> >> >>one-eyed
> >> >>
> >> >>merchant, seller of currants, melts into the
> >> >>Phoenician Sailor, and the
> >> >>
> >> >>latter is not wholly distinct from Ferdinand Prince of
> >> >>Naples, so all the
> >> >>
> >> >>women are one woman, and the two sexes meet in
> >> >>Tiresias."
> >> >>
> >> >>In TWL, it is Tiresias who lives through the agony of
> >> >>most
> >> >>
> >> >>personages, mixing memories and blending pains.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>~ CR
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>>From: Nancy Gish <[log in to unmask]>
> >> >>>Reply-To: "T. S. Eliot Discussion forum."
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >><[log in to unmask]>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>>To: [log in to unmask]
> >> >>>Subject: Re: "the king my father's death..."
> >> >>>Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 11:31:56 -0400
> >> >>>
> >> >>>As Gertrude says to Hamlet, the death of fathers is
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>common: "all that
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>>lives must die, / passing through nature to eternity.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>Literature, like
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>>life, is full of dead fathers.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>So I am confused at why this death is a likely
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>allusion--why would
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>>Ferdinand bring up Oedipus?
> >> >>;>Nancy
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>>>>[log in to unmask] 07/19/05 7:23 AM >>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>---------------------------------
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> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >--
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> >> >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> >> >Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.9.2/53 - Release Date:
> >> >7/20/2005
> >>
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> >>
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> >
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> >7/22/2005
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