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TSE  April 2005

TSE April 2005

Subject:

Re: Crippen -- You just can't help liking this guy somehow.

From:

Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

T. S. Eliot Discussion forum.

Date:

Fri, 8 Apr 2005 23:32:48 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (142 lines)

Oh I admit my humour can be repulsive, not that Eliot's wasn't on occasion.
Perhaps it comes from too much Joyce with lines like, "Girls are Jung 
and easily
Freudened." But my milk joke had nothing to do with the Cripen story. It was
quite irrelevant to that particlar horror, which, I beg to differ, has 
taken on the
character of legend, ie.art for a lot of people. So your scolding seems 
a waste
of attention. Wit whither wilt?

Jeffrey Daumer is not a safe example to use, any more than would be 
Lorena Bobbit's
cruelty. Both cases evoked incredible humour. In fact public enormity 
often does,
because that's one of the ways we protect ourselves from facing the 
potential of
such extremes in ourselves, potential, it would seem, that we all have.

P.


Nancy Gish wrote:

>Crippen was a real murderer who really murdered his wife in a horrible
>way.  Read the Major British Trial series.  This joking was not about
>art or I would agree with you.  I do not think murder from an earlier
>time in any way takes on the character of art.  It is still murder. 
>Tell me, when do we decide that Jeffrey Daumer is amusing?  A  year? 
>Two?  A century?  It might be made into art--like all those Greek plays
>and Renaissance plays about horrror--but that is a different thing. 
>That is why it is cathartic to see "Shindler's List" and psychotic to
>joke about the Holocaust--the art aims at least at finding meaning or
>understanding or just knowledge.  And my first response was to the truly
>awful ostensible "joke" about spilt milk.  
>Nancy
>
>  
>
>>>>[log in to unmask] 04/08/05 7:21 PM >>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>This gets to the crux of the matter Nancy. If we were making fun
>of a current horror, the behaviour would be quite unacceptable.
>Horror in life, and horror in art are two different things. Even
>real horror from the distant past takes on the character of
>art because it is so strongly mediated through the forms
>of communication.
>
>Were it otherwise, it would simply be perverse and wrong to
>perform and be entertained by, for example, a tragedy like
>Hamlet. Instead of its being kathartic it would be psychotic.
>There is a difference.
>
>Bringing your personal reality into the discussion
>is risky if you wish us to keep the focus on the art,
>rather than getting personal.
>
>Peter
>
>Nancy Gish wrote:
>
>  
>
>>For god's sake--this is getting as tacky and cheap as tv commercials. 
>>And did any of you every contemplate a real murder.  I've had to over
>>the past week--a hellish one.  It is not amusing.
>>Nancy
>>
>> 
>>
>>    
>>
>>>>>[log in to unmask] 04/07/05 10:04 PM >>>
>>>>>       
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>No use crying over spilt milk.
>>P.
>>
>>Carrol Cox wrote:
>>
>> 
>>
>>    
>>
>>>"Rickard A. Parker" wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>   
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>>Oh, about my subject line (we were talking of perversity, weren't
>>>>     
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>we?):
>> 
>>
>>    
>>
>>>>CRIPPEN MURDER IS A LENS INTO EDWARDIAN ENGLAND
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>>     
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>A story I once heard -- source forgotten.
>>>
>>>One of Edward's former mistresses paid him a visit shortly after his
>>>coronation, bringing her young daughter with her. The king took the
>>>young girl on his lap, and the mother departed briefly. When she
>>>returned, the girl was alone. "Where is the King?" The girl replied,
>>>"Some one must have called him, because he leaped to his feet yelling,
>>>'I'm coming! I'm coming!' and ran out of the room."
>>>
>>>Carrol
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>> 
>>
>>    
>>
>
>
>  
>


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