Please do not call me "Ms. Nancy." I do not call you "Mr. Vishvesh."
And please stop repeating that I am only interested in a poem as "idea."
This is not true, as I keep pointing out, yet you continue to state it
as if it were a fact.
Also, One "may" see anything one wants in a poem (it's not illegal or
immoral), but that does not mean it is in the poem. Am I to assume that
YOU, for example, have acquired this ability to "identify the essential
experience that makes it into a unique expression"--whatever that
is--but I have not, despite decades of reading and teaching it? How did
you achieve this, and how are we to know that you have it but others do
And if you have, why are we all wasting time in discussion on this list?
Why do you not simply send us all the truths of "essential experience"
and we can close down?
I am hardly alone in finding this poem perverse--read almost any
discussion of it. And I offer again to define "perverse" if you like
and connect it to self-flagellation in a sexual situation, loving
corpses, and strangling lovers. It is not a long stretch. The
Elizabethans did, indeed, represent a great deal of perversity. They
also engaged in burning people alive, drawing and quartering, political
murder, chopping off the heads of wives--you know--not nice.
If you will not discuss the poetry, please do not discuss me as if you
were in a position to judge my ability to read.
And my name is Nancy.
>>> [log in to unmask] 04/03/05 11:41 AM >>>
One may see anything one wants to when one reads a
poem, for a poem is a complex organization of various
experiences. But what one acquires in one's constant
reading of poetry is to identify the essential
experience that makes it into a unique expression.
I wasn't surprised that Ms.Nancy would find this work
'perverse', for I have observed that she seems to be
more interested in what a poem could mean as an 'idea'
than as an 'experience'. But I was wondering if anyone
else would make a reply before I made one and I am
glad Debra did, and a good one at that. If one
considered this work perverse most of Elizabethan
poetry may itself become perverse, for this work shows
strong influence of Elizabethan poetry (I am struck by
the parallels to 'The Changeling', particularly as
associated with the character of DeFlores. I don't
have the text to quote any lines). I was even
wondering why Eliot didn't compose it as a sonnet for
it has all the qualities that make the sonnets of
Shakespeare : the precision, the feeling, and the
Show us what our next emoticon should look like. Join the fun.