Islam has no trouble bridging to the transcendent, as a study
of the Sufis (Moslem mystics)would help show. All creatures have a dimension
of TANZI or the involvment of Allah, and Tashbi or sensory experience which
is a kind of filter of an aspect of Allah. A favourite
analogy is the window of coloured glass. Light (tanzi) shines
through the coloured (say green) window. One sees the dust motes on the
other side of the window as green. Also, Allah is, at every instant,
creationg and destroying everything that exists.

BTW, the Sufis are no longer being persecuted n Turkey. It is part
of their transition for membership in the EU.

Cheers,
Peter

-----Original Message-----
From: William Gray
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: 2004-Nov-04 11:22 AM
Subject: RE: (OT) US Elections: Allusions to 'christianity'

Gotcha. That would be the essential philosophical difference between
Christianity and Islam then -- Christianity has a way of spanning the
noumenal and phenomenal -- Christ (the Word become flesh). In my
experience, other religions try to manufacture some kind of leap that
never really works too well. This is why the Incarnation is still one of
the biggest mysteries in the history of human thought. Thanks for
setting me straight on the Mohammed question, Peter.

Will

>>> Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]> 11/04/04 02:17PM >>>
Mohammed was THE prophet, but in no way had a divine dimension to him.
Allah is the centre of Islam, and only Allah. Any attempt to associate a
divine or transcedental nature with Mohammed would be blasphemy in their
eyes.

P.

-----Original Message-----
From: William Gray
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: 2004-Nov-04 11:05 AM
Subject: Re: (OT) US Elections: Allusions to 'christianity'

I don't know a lot about Islam, but that sounds like a fair call --
Mohammed would seem to be the center. Right? Is this controversial?

>>> [log in to unmask] 11/04/04 01:16PM >>>
'The center of true Christianity is Christ, not a set
of principles.'

You could also then justify at a similar conclusion
that Mohammed is the center of Islam, which is thought
to be the major problem in the present issues of Islam
by many !


--- William Gray <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Yes, you're right, George, there is an assumption
> being made here by Christians -- that IF
> Christianity is the true accounting of reality, then
> it would best explain the origin of principles such
> as these. Contrary opinion would assert that if
> Christianity is only A belief, then why are so many
> other religious principles similar? How dare
> Christianity claim to be the origin? It's the
> difference between mere similitude and a
> cause-effect relationship. You either have to
> believe in an origin of these things, or instead
> believe that man has come up with everything
> meaningful that exists (for how could chance create
> meaning?).
>
> The death penalty in origin (according to the Bible)
> is a Christian thing (Genesis 9:6).
> I have no idea where the right to bear arms comes
> from -- that always seemed to me an element of early
> America that was reacting against Britain (just like
> the third amendment -- why else would this be a
> priority?). Personally, I've never given significant
> support to the right to bear arms, but hey -- it's
> in the Bill of Rights. Not really a Christian idea.
> I'm not sure that people call it a Christian
> principle, and if they do, I guess you're right to
> call them on the carpet for it.
> Homosexuality -- a well-documented no-no in the
> Bible (I Corinthians 6:9, Romans 1:26-27, among
> other passages). According to Christianity, if God
> created people as well as marriage, he gets to
> decide proper bounds for sexuality. Again, it's
> those who see Christianity as only a choice among
> many belief systems who see this as a transgression
> against freedom. I guess it all depends on how you
> define freedom. Perhaps Thomas Carlyle was right
> (freedom is being shown the right path and, if
> necessary, being made to walk in it). In almost
> every other avenue of life, it makes sense to us
> that we should look out for others to make sure they
> are operating within appropriate bounds -- for their
> good, not ours (like crisis counseling, drug rehab,
> mental institutions).
> As I explained to a fellow student at Oxford a few
> years ago, as annoying as it was to her that people
> would stop her on the street and ask if she were
> going to heaven or hell, doesn't it make sense that
> if someone truly believed you were going to hell, it
> would be a loving thing for them to let you know
> about it? In other words, there is a difference
> between one who is a true believer in Christianity
> and someone who knows about Christianity -- the
> difference is in the way they look at the world and
> at the tenets of Christianity itself. Worldviews are
> like a set of glasses. And it's the worst when a
> person thinks he's not wearing any glasses, that he
> has no worldview.
> And yes, Ken is right about Tillich. The center of
> true Christianity is Christ, not a set of
> principles.
>
> Best wishes,
> Will
>
> >>> [log in to unmask] 11/04/04 09:42AM >>>
> On Thu, Nov 04, 2004 at 09:12:37AM -0500, William
> Gray wrote:
> > before. Perhaps you and I would differ in how we
> react to that. I find it comforting to a degree,
> since
> > this nation was founded on Christian principles --
> however, since Christians will always differ a
> little
>
> I take the view, and I think it's supported by the
> often rabid disagreements between different factions
> of
> Christianity, that there is no such thing as a
> "Christian principle". What many Christians
> consider to be
> principles unique to their faith are in fact general
> humanitarian principles shared by many faiths. And
> as
> with all such 'principles', they are *merely*
> principles and should not be taken as matters of
> dogma. To
> say nothing of the fact that "Christian principles"
> regularly seem to have very little to do with
> anything
> that's written in the Bible except perhaps in the
> most tangential manner, and to have been
> cherrypicked
> according to people's prejudices. So it is that we
> have a nation founded upon "Christian" values that
> has
> a death penalty and a right to bear arms but that
> gets riled up about homosexuals.
>
> --George
>




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