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TSE  November 2004

TSE November 2004

Subject:

Re: (OT) To criticize Religion : a case study with two online pet itions

From:

Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

T. S. Eliot Discussion forum.

Date:

Mon, 15 Nov 2004 17:59:02 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (246 lines)

I'm pretty sure Congregationalism got in there some where.
Unitarianism is a unique phenomenon: a noble attempt to
have all good things all ways. The result is the gathering
of good people with not so much in common. If one were
looking for roots, by definition such limiting distinctions
would not be found there. (That's my outside view, anyways.)

Cheers,
Peter
-----Original Message-----
From: William Gray
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: 2004-Nov-15 5:54 AM
Subject: Re: (OT) To criticize Religion : a case study with two online pet
itions

Peter,
    In my experience, Unitarianism (his family's religion) and
Anglicanism (his adopted/conversion religion) are far different. I have
visited both his family's Unitarian church in St. Louis and his Anglican
church (St. Stephen's) in London and have studied a little about the two
religions. Unitarians (and I mean no offense by this) have far fewer
beliefs than Anglicans. I am no expert on either of these, but my
understanding is that Unitarians are far more accepting of other
religions within their own church, while Anglicanism tends to be more
exclusive.
Those friends of mine who are members of the St. Louis Unitarian church
find it slightly offensive to think that Eliot converted, rather than
reverted, but I think that's more accurate understanding.

Cheers,
Will

>>> [log in to unmask] 11/12/04 05:38PM >>>
Well, his orinal religion was either Unitarianism or Congressionalism
I've heard both. He did convert or revert? to Anglicanism.
So it's not quite precise to say he didn't convert, especially given
that his trning to Anglicanism was such a big
issue in his life. Still, I know what you mean.

Peter
----- Original Message -----
From: "Vishvesh Obla" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 6:12 AM
Subject: Re: (OT) To criticize Religion : a case study with two online
pet
itions


> Peter,
>
> That was a very good posting. I am glad you could
> look at Religion for what it is, as a personal faith
> and its possible influence on another. I strongly
> feel that our education should make us realize such
> perceptions. Thank You.
>
> - vishvesh
>
> PS : More than the fact that Eliot was inspired by
> Eastern Religions, I respect him for the fact that he
> didn't give up his religion and preferred to remain
> what he was and explore his roots. For, what a loss
> it would have been, if he had converted !
>
>
>
> --- Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> > Agreed.
> > Frequently when people try to assert their own
> > beliefs in words
> > it is a sign that they need to validate their own
> > beliefs by getting
> > others into their particular religiosity's corral.
> > People secure in
> > their beliefs don't need to do that. Some of the
> > most fascinating
> > religious discussions of the 20th Century were
> > between GK Chesterton
> > and George Bernard Shaw. Shaw even said GKC's book
> > on him [Shaw] was
> > about the best around. When people are secure in
> > their own religion,
> > the positive dynamic of their faith is an attraction
> > of great strength.
> > No pushiness is needed. It comes from the heart, and
> > has a universality
> > to it, even when the words are different from one's
> > own. Gandhi would
> > be a good example. I personally encountered several
> > souls like
> > that at St. Michael's University College in Toronto
> > in the early
> > 1960s. Ettienne Gilson, Marshall McLuhan, and
> > Jacques Maritain,
> > among others, were very memorable. They have had a
> > life
> > long effect on me. Eliot had a similar effect
> > although not in person.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Peter
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Peter
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Vishvesh Obla
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Sent: 2004-Nov-10 11:55 AM
> > Subject: Re: (OT) To criticize Religion : a case
> > study with two online
> > petitions
> >
> > "One can discuss religion
> > intelligently
> > and meaniingfully very easily, on this site or any.
> > The problem comes
> > when
> > one violates respect by trying to proselytise, or
> > even
> > playing
> > one-up-man-ship."
> >
> > While 'discussion' of religion itself could create a
> > difference as that, what impact would it have when
> > it
> > is practised? I think it is a shame to man's
> > integrity itself, to impose a personal belief, based
> > on a personal faith, without having any 'respect'
> > for
> > a fellow human being (or a 'Pagan' and a 'Kafir' for
> > that matter).
> >
> > --- Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > > Sometimes it is a question of style. One can
> > discuss
> > > religion intelligently
> > > and meaniingfully very easily, on this site or
> > any.
> > > The problem comes when
> > > one violates respect by trying to proselytise, or
> > > even playing
> > > one-up-man-ship.
> > > Remember the bit about taking the lowest place at
> > > the table? He who exalts
> > > himself?
> > > The truth, as I believe, may indeed be one, but
> > each
> > > of us has VERY limited
> > > perspectives on it. By all means we should cherish
> > > our perspectives, and
> > > share the
> > > values they bring to our lives. The simple truth
> > is,
> > > we can't make others
> > > see our
> > > perspectvies. Some may if they want to, but even
> > > then there is no way
> > > to share the perspective exactly.
> > >
> > > Sorry to sermonise.
> > >
> > > Peter
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "William Gray" <[log in to unmask]>
> > > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 10:02 AM
> > > Subject: Re: (OT) To criticize Religion : a case
> > > study with two online
> > > petitions
> > >
> > >
> > > > Thanks for passing this along. Religious freedom
> > > is very important, just
> > > like the exchanges we've had on the list over the
> > > past week or so. If any of
> > > us were an ideological dictator, life would be
> > > awful. Part of the beauty of
> > > America is that people are allowed to disagree
> > with
> > > each other and even with
> > > government policies. Freedom of speech is a
> > > beautiful thing. Of course, true
> > > freedom of speech is the ability always to say
> > the
> > > right thing, something
> > > each person no doubt longs for. I wish I had that
> > > kind of freedom!
> > > >
> > > > Best wishes,
> > > > Will
> > > >
> > > > >>> [log in to unmask] 11/09/04 12:18PM >>>
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://www.faithfreedom.org/Announcement/petition.htm
> > > >
> > > > I came across these two online petitions today.
> > I
> > > > think it is a very important issue on both sides
> > > of
> > > > it, for it involves faith on one hand, and
> > liberty
> > > on
> > > > the other. More than the question 'Is religion
> > > apart
> > > > criticism', I think it raises certain
> > fundamental
> > > > issues on the nature of religious issues today.
> > I
> > > > believe it would concern us all here for we are
> > > > concerned with 'expression' in general and its
> > > bearing
> > > > on human life.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > __________________________________
> > > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > > Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
> > > > www.yahoo.com
> > >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
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> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
> www.yahoo.com

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