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MOBIRDS-L  October 2004, Week 4

MOBIRDS-L October 2004, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Threatened expulsion from list

From:

Jill DeWitt <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Jill DeWitt <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 26 Oct 2004 09:27:09 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (276 lines)

I'll second Lynn's remarks--and I'm trying to talk 'civility' to an irate
and increasingly disgruntled bunch of past KU backers here in KC! We'd like
a reasoned response--hopefully, one that also calms our fears relating to
the evolutionary implications of picking off hybrids or mutants.

Jill DeWitt
Kansas City
Red-breasted Nuthatch was the pleasure of the day here.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lynn Miller" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 7:57 AM
Subject: Re: Threatened expulsion from list


> I'm with bob on this.  Issue NOT resolved, and DOES jeopardize the list
> sitings
> posted DIRECTLY.
>
> Lynn Miller
> Lone Jack,MO
> Jackson CO
>
> Quoting Robert Fisher <[log in to unmask]>:
>
>> The list owner has threatened me with expulsion from the list for a very
>> brief (but sarcastic) post that I made on October 22nd  to the effect
>> that a
>> possible Kelp Gull in Indiana should be collected by KU folks and sent to
>> LSU
>> for research. It is the first post to the list related to the collection
>> of
>> the Smithville Gull that I have made in nearly a  month. It did not
>> create an
>> uproar.
>>
>> I do not believe my post jeopardized the list owner's contract with MU.
>> It
>> certainly did not go outside the wild bird subject matter. It does not
>> appear
>> to me to have a been a personal attack or other violation of normal rules
>> of
>> propriety. I don't see it as having endangered the collegiality of the
>> list.
>> I do see my post as having been a sharp, if brief,  reminder that the
>> issue
>> of the collection of the Smithville Gull never really got resolved
>> satisfactorily for many of us, including me. The person who collected the
>> Smithville Gull has never promised to refrain from doing it again. Unless
>> and
>> until he makes such a promise and/or the authorities assure that they
>> will
>> prevent him from having the opportunity to do it again, I believe that
>> any
>> rare bird we report to the list is in danger of being collected. The more
>> rare the bird, the bigger the likihood it will be collected for the
>> museum in
>> Lawrence.
>>
>> The ASM leadership has evidently sought to make the whole issue just go
>> away
>> by declaring that Mark Robbins gave an explanation at the Fall Meeting
>> that
>> satisfied everybody. End of story. Case closed. I dissent from that. I am
>> not
>> satisfied with the explanation. I don't want to close the case until we
>> can
>> be assured that the next Smithville Gull that shows up will not also get
>> collected and sent to Lawrence.
>>
>> The list owner has a right to make rules as well as to enforce rules
>> already
>> made. If she wants to suppress dissent she has every right to do it. I
>> see
>> her threat to expel me as an attempt to suppress my dissent about the ASM
>> leadership's handling of the Smithville Gull affair. I would have liked
>> to
>> see the ASM leadership attempt to negotiate an agreement with Mark
>> Robbins
>> whereby he would promise not to do it again. I suggested as much
>> privately to
>> Susan Gustafson and Edge Wade. (Edge had provided good leadership with
>> her
>> "come let us reason together post").  As I see it, ASM decided instead to
>> try
>> to shove the issue under the rug.
>>
>> If I get kicked off the list for dissenting about the Smithville Gull
>> incident, so be it. If I become unpopular for trying to keep the matter
>> alive
>> (albeit in a way that I think respects the collegiality of the list), so
>> be
>> it. I believe the collecting of the Smithville Gull was wrong and
>> contrary to
>> the interests of birders, like me.  If I get kicked off of the list
>> and/or
>> become unpopular for standing up for what I believe in, I will not be the
>> first person to suffer similar consequences for similar behavior.
>>
>> I have written letters to various parties in an effort to prevent Mark
>> Robbins from being able to collect another Smithville Gull-type bird in
>> Missouri. I have not sought to have him, or anyone else, disciplined, nor
>> have I sought to have his collector's permit taken away. I have asked
>> several
>> parties for an investigation, and I have sought to have a limitation
>> placed
>> on Mark's ability to collect rare birds being watched by lots of birders
>> in
>> Missouri.  Thus far, I have not used the list to rally support for my
>> campaign. Indeed, I have shared my actions with only a few other people.
>>
>> Since it appears that I may be kicked off the list soon, I now invite
>> anyone
>> who wishes to join the cause of the Smithville Gull  to contact me
>> privately.
>> I will provide copies of the letters I have sent and suggestions how you
>> can
>> write supportive letters, if you wish to do so. If you wish to write
>> letters
>> expressing a different slant than mine, I will welcome that too.
>>
>> I have been birding for 57 years. For almost all of that time, I have
>> been
>> aware that collecting is an emotional issue in every birding community.
>> Some
>> birders oppose all collecting. Others recognize that a great deal of
>> valuable
>> scientific information has been gathered from specimens and that much of
>> that
>> information could only have been gained by collecting.  Most birders
>> don't
>> focus upon it, but the illustrations in most of our best field guides
>> could
>> not have been done without the aid of specimens. A fair number of very
>> ardent
>> birders would like to see rare birds collected to establish state records
>> with certainty, resolve difficult identification questions, etc.
>>
>> My viewpoint is intermediate between the ban-all-collection folks and
>> those
>> who would put the interests of people who want to collect rare birds
>> above
>> those who want to leave them alive for more birders to see. I would allow
>> collection, especially from substantial populations, only for
>> well-justified
>> use in carefully-planned scientific projects. I would ban it for single
>> strays that birders are watching. I would also encourage alternative ways
>> of
>> getting information -- e.g. capturing the bird or extracting DNA from one
>> or
>> more feathers. Photographs are another alternative to collection. I
>> believe
>> that Slaty-backed Gull and Ross' Gull both got full status on the
>> Missouri
>> checklist from photos. I understand that a feather from the Smithville
>> Gull
>> was obtained before it was shot. It was molting heavily and more feathers
>> were available. Quite a library of increasingly-good photos was also
>> accumulating when it was shot. Out-of-state experts were just beginning
>> to
>> review the photos and make comments.
>>
>> Simply stated, my rule would be, "When unnecessary or in doubt, don't
>> collect."
>>
>> The interests of amateur birders and professional ornithologists usually
>> run
>> on the same track or on parallel tracks and in the same direction. Both
>> have
>> made great contributions to each other's knowledge. Only occasionally do
>> these interests clash head on, but it occurred with the Smithville Gull.
>> (I
>> wrote about a similar incident 44 years ago in THE GREAT ALBATROSS DAY,
>> which
>> can be read at http://www.mobirds.org/Articles/Albatross.htm). It is my
>> viewpoint that professional ornithologists (and members of record
>> committees,
>> who would like specimens for the purposes of state records) should
>> refrain
>> from collecting zooties to avoid a head-on clashes with the birders. If
>> they
>> are unwilling to agree to refrain voluntarily, I think their employers
>> and/or
>> the permitting authorities should restrict them from doing it.
>>
>> The issue can be argued over and over, as it has been argued over and
>> over in
>> the past. Unless the list owner wants to establish a special
>> point-counterpoint-type forum for it, I would prefer not to see it argued
>> any
>> more at any length on this list.  I think the list has probably heard all
>> that most of its subscribers want to hear about the Smithville Gull.
>> While I
>> do think that the issue could be debated in a civil manner in a forum
>> such as
>> this one without getting people mad at each other, and that such a debate
>> could be informative, I am not suggesting it.
>>
>> I value the collegiality of the list and the nice cyber-community that is
>> Missouri Wild Bird Forum. I do not think the list's atmosphere of good
>> will
>> is in much jeopardy in this instance. But I do think were should be
>> careful
>> not to let our emotions carry us away.
>>
>> At the bottom line, I am willing to take the consequences of my decision
>> to
>> fight on, whatever they may be, and I invite those who wish to join me
>> (or to
>> discuss the issues with me by e-mail) to contact me off list.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Bob Fisher
>> Independence, Missouri
>> [log in to unmask]
>>
>> __________________________________________________
>> *        Audubon Society of Missouri's           *
>> *         Wild Bird Discussion Forum             *
>> *------------------------------------------------*
>> * To unsubscribe send the message                *
>> *    SIGNOFF MOBIRDS-L                           *
>> * to [log in to unmask]                    *
>> * To subscribe send the message                  *
>> * SUBSCRIBE MOBIRDS-L your name                  *
>> * to [log in to unmask]                    *
>> *------------------------------------------------*
>> * To access the list archives from July 2002 on: *
>> * http://po.missouri.edu/archives/mobirds-l.html *
>> *                                                *
>> * To access the Audubon Society of Missouri Web  *
>> * Site:  http://www.mobirds.org                  *
>> ##################################################
>>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------
> This mail sent through MuleMail: http://mulemail.cmsu.edu/
>
> __________________________________________________
> *        Audubon Society of Missouri's           *
> *         Wild Bird Discussion Forum             *
> *------------------------------------------------*
> * To unsubscribe send the message                *
> *    SIGNOFF MOBIRDS-L                           *
> * to [log in to unmask]                    *
> * To subscribe send the message                  *
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> *------------------------------------------------*
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> *                                                *
> * To access the Audubon Society of Missouri Web  *
> * Site:  http://www.mobirds.org                  *
> ##################################################

__________________________________________________
*        Audubon Society of Missouri's           *
*         Wild Bird Discussion Forum             *
*------------------------------------------------*
* To unsubscribe send the message                *
*    SIGNOFF MOBIRDS-L                           *
* to [log in to unmask]                    *
* To subscribe send the message                  *
* SUBSCRIBE MOBIRDS-L your name                  *
* to [log in to unmask]                    *
*------------------------------------------------*
* To access the list archives from July 2002 on: *
* http://po.missouri.edu/archives/mobirds-l.html *
*                                                *
* To access the Audubon Society of Missouri Web  *
* Site:  http://www.mobirds.org                  *
##################################################

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April 2009, Week 2
April 2009, Week 1
March 2009, Week 5
March 2009, Week 4
March 2009, Week 3
March 2009, Week 2
March 2009, Week 1
February 2009, Week 4
February 2009, Week 3
February 2009, Week 2
February 2009, Week 1
January 2009, Week 5
January 2009, Week 4
January 2009, Week 3
January 2009, Week 2
January 2009, Week 1
December 2008, Week 5
December 2008, Week 4
December 2008, Week 3
December 2008, Week 2
December 2008, Week 1
November 2008, Week 5
November 2008, Week 4
November 2008, Week 3
November 2008, Week 2
November 2008, Week 1
October 2008, Week 5
October 2008, Week 4
October 2008, Week 3
October 2008, Week 2
October 2008, Week 1
September 2008, Week 5
September 2008, Week 4
September 2008, Week 3
September 2008, Week 2
September 2008, Week 1
August 2008, Week 5
August 2008, Week 4
August 2008, Week 3
August 2008, Week 2
August 2008, Week 1
July 2008, Week 5
July 2008, Week 4
July 2008, Week 3
July 2008, Week 2
July 2008, Week 1
June 2008, Week 5
June 2008, Week 4
June 2008, Week 3
June 2008, Week 2
June 2008, Week 1
May 2008, Week 5
May 2008, Week 4
May 2008, Week 3
May 2008, Week 2
May 2008, Week 1
April 2008, Week 5
April 2008, Week 4
April 2008, Week 3
April 2008, Week 2
April 2008, Week 1
March 2008, Week 5
March 2008, Week 4
March 2008, Week 3
March 2008, Week 2
March 2008, Week 1
February 2008, Week 5
February 2008, Week 4
February 2008, Week 3
February 2008, Week 2
February 2008, Week 1
January 2008, Week 5
January 2008, Week 4
January 2008, Week 3
January 2008, Week 2
January 2008, Week 1
December 2007, Week 5
December 2007, Week 4
December 2007, Week 3
December 2007, Week 2
December 2007, Week 1
November 2007, Week 5
November 2007, Week 4
November 2007, Week 3
November 2007, Week 2
November 2007, Week 1
October 2007, Week 5
October 2007, Week 4
October 2007, Week 3
October 2007, Week 2
October 2007, Week 1
September 2007, Week 5
September 2007, Week 4
September 2007, Week 3
September 2007, Week 2
September 2007, Week 1
August 2007, Week 5
August 2007, Week 4
August 2007, Week 3
August 2007, Week 2
August 2007, Week 1
July 2007, Week 5
July 2007, Week 4
July 2007, Week 3
July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
June 2007, Week 4
June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3

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