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MOBIRDS-L  October 2004, Week 4

MOBIRDS-L October 2004, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Threatened expulsion from list

From:

Lynn Miller <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Tue, 26 Oct 2004 07:57:10 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (174 lines)

I'm with bob on this.  Issue NOT resolved, and DOES jeopardize the list sitings
posted DIRECTLY.

Lynn Miller
Lone Jack,MO
Jackson CO

Quoting Robert Fisher <[log in to unmask]>:

> The list owner has threatened me with expulsion from the list for a very
> brief (but sarcastic) post that I made on October 22nd  to the effect that a
> possible Kelp Gull in Indiana should be collected by KU folks and sent to LSU
> for research. It is the first post to the list related to the collection of
> the Smithville Gull that I have made in nearly a  month. It did not create an
> uproar.
>
> I do not believe my post jeopardized the list owner's contract with MU. It
> certainly did not go outside the wild bird subject matter. It does not appear
> to me to have a been a personal attack or other violation of normal rules of
> propriety. I don't see it as having endangered the collegiality of the list.
> I do see my post as having been a sharp, if brief,  reminder that the issue
> of the collection of the Smithville Gull never really got resolved
> satisfactorily for many of us, including me. The person who collected the
> Smithville Gull has never promised to refrain from doing it again. Unless and
> until he makes such a promise and/or the authorities assure that they will
> prevent him from having the opportunity to do it again, I believe that any
> rare bird we report to the list is in danger of being collected. The more
> rare the bird, the bigger the likihood it will be collected for the museum in
> Lawrence.
>
> The ASM leadership has evidently sought to make the whole issue just go away
> by declaring that Mark Robbins gave an explanation at the Fall Meeting that
> satisfied everybody. End of story. Case closed. I dissent from that. I am not
> satisfied with the explanation. I don't want to close the case until we can
> be assured that the next Smithville Gull that shows up will not also get
> collected and sent to Lawrence.
>
> The list owner has a right to make rules as well as to enforce rules already
> made. If she wants to suppress dissent she has every right to do it. I see
> her threat to expel me as an attempt to suppress my dissent about the ASM
> leadership's handling of the Smithville Gull affair. I would have liked to
> see the ASM leadership attempt to negotiate an agreement with Mark Robbins
> whereby he would promise not to do it again. I suggested as much privately to
> Susan Gustafson and Edge Wade. (Edge had provided good leadership with her
> "come let us reason together post").  As I see it, ASM decided instead to try
> to shove the issue under the rug.
>
> If I get kicked off the list for dissenting about the Smithville Gull
> incident, so be it. If I become unpopular for trying to keep the matter alive
> (albeit in a way that I think respects the collegiality of the list), so be
> it. I believe the collecting of the Smithville Gull was wrong and contrary to
> the interests of birders, like me.  If I get kicked off of the list and/or
> become unpopular for standing up for what I believe in, I will not be the
> first person to suffer similar consequences for similar behavior.
>
> I have written letters to various parties in an effort to prevent Mark
> Robbins from being able to collect another Smithville Gull-type bird in
> Missouri. I have not sought to have him, or anyone else, disciplined, nor
> have I sought to have his collector's permit taken away. I have asked several
> parties for an investigation, and I have sought to have a limitation placed
> on Mark's ability to collect rare birds being watched by lots of birders in
> Missouri.  Thus far, I have not used the list to rally support for my
> campaign. Indeed, I have shared my actions with only a few other people.
>
> Since it appears that I may be kicked off the list soon, I now invite anyone
> who wishes to join the cause of the Smithville Gull  to contact me privately.
> I will provide copies of the letters I have sent and suggestions how you can
> write supportive letters, if you wish to do so. If you wish to write letters
> expressing a different slant than mine, I will welcome that too.
>
> I have been birding for 57 years. For almost all of that time, I have been
> aware that collecting is an emotional issue in every birding community. Some
> birders oppose all collecting. Others recognize that a great deal of valuable
> scientific information has been gathered from specimens and that much of that
> information could only have been gained by collecting.  Most birders don't
> focus upon it, but the illustrations in most of our best field guides could
> not have been done without the aid of specimens. A fair number of very ardent
> birders would like to see rare birds collected to establish state records
> with certainty, resolve difficult identification questions, etc.
>
> My viewpoint is intermediate between the ban-all-collection folks and those
> who would put the interests of people who want to collect rare birds above
> those who want to leave them alive for more birders to see. I would allow
> collection, especially from substantial populations, only for well-justified
> use in carefully-planned scientific projects. I would ban it for single
> strays that birders are watching. I would also encourage alternative ways of
> getting information -- e.g. capturing the bird or extracting DNA from one or
> more feathers. Photographs are another alternative to collection. I believe
> that Slaty-backed Gull and Ross' Gull both got full status on the Missouri
> checklist from photos. I understand that a feather from the Smithville Gull
> was obtained before it was shot. It was molting heavily and more feathers
> were available. Quite a library of increasingly-good photos was also
> accumulating when it was shot. Out-of-state experts were just beginning to
> review the photos and make comments.
>
> Simply stated, my rule would be, "When unnecessary or in doubt, don't
> collect."
>
> The interests of amateur birders and professional ornithologists usually run
> on the same track or on parallel tracks and in the same direction. Both have
> made great contributions to each other's knowledge. Only occasionally do
> these interests clash head on, but it occurred with the Smithville Gull. (I
> wrote about a similar incident 44 years ago in THE GREAT ALBATROSS DAY, which
> can be read at http://www.mobirds.org/Articles/Albatross.htm). It is my
> viewpoint that professional ornithologists (and members of record committees,
> who would like specimens for the purposes of state records) should refrain
> from collecting zooties to avoid a head-on clashes with the birders. If they
> are unwilling to agree to refrain voluntarily, I think their employers and/or
> the permitting authorities should restrict them from doing it.
>
> The issue can be argued over and over, as it has been argued over and over in
> the past. Unless the list owner wants to establish a special
> point-counterpoint-type forum for it, I would prefer not to see it argued any
> more at any length on this list.  I think the list has probably heard all
> that most of its subscribers want to hear about the Smithville Gull.  While I
> do think that the issue could be debated in a civil manner in a forum such as
> this one without getting people mad at each other, and that such a debate
> could be informative, I am not suggesting it.
>
> I value the collegiality of the list and the nice cyber-community that is
> Missouri Wild Bird Forum. I do not think the list's atmosphere of good will
> is in much jeopardy in this instance. But I do think were should be careful
> not to let our emotions carry us away.
>
> At the bottom line, I am willing to take the consequences of my decision to
> fight on, whatever they may be, and I invite those who wish to join me (or to
> discuss the issues with me by e-mail) to contact me off list.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Bob Fisher
> Independence, Missouri
> [log in to unmask]
>
> __________________________________________________
> *        Audubon Society of Missouri's           *
> *         Wild Bird Discussion Forum             *
> *------------------------------------------------*
> * To unsubscribe send the message                *
> *    SIGNOFF MOBIRDS-L                           *
> * to [log in to unmask]                    *
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> * SUBSCRIBE MOBIRDS-L your name                  *
> * to [log in to unmask]                    *
> *------------------------------------------------*
> * To access the list archives from July 2002 on: *
> * http://po.missouri.edu/archives/mobirds-l.html *
> *                                                *
> * To access the Audubon Society of Missouri Web  *
> * Site:  http://www.mobirds.org                  *
> ##################################################
>


-------------------------------------------------
This mail sent through MuleMail: http://mulemail.cmsu.edu/

__________________________________________________
*        Audubon Society of Missouri's           *
*         Wild Bird Discussion Forum             *
*------------------------------------------------*
* To unsubscribe send the message                *
*    SIGNOFF MOBIRDS-L                           *
* to [log in to unmask]                    *
* To subscribe send the message                  *
* SUBSCRIBE MOBIRDS-L your name                  *
* to [log in to unmask]                    *
*------------------------------------------------*
* To access the list archives from July 2002 on: *
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*                                                *
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* Site:  http://www.mobirds.org                  *
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April 2007, Week 1
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March 2007, Week 1
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December 2006, Week 5
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October 2006, Week 1
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September 2006, Week 1
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August 2006, Week 3
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July 2006, Week 3
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July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
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May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
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March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
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March 2006, Week 1
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February 2006, Week 1
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September 2005, Week 1
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August 2005, Week 1
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July 2005, Week 3
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July 2005, Week 1
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December 2004, Week 5
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May 2004, Week 3
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November 2003, Week 3
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November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
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August 2003, Week 1
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July 2003, Week 1
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June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
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March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
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February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
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November 2002, Week 3
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October 2002, Week 3
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September 2002, Week 1
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