LISTSERV mailing list manager LISTSERV 16.0

Help for TSE Archives


TSE Archives

TSE Archives


TSE@PO.MISSOURI.EDU


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Proportional Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

TSE Home

TSE Home

TSE  December 2003

TSE December 2003

Subject:

Re: Poets on poetry

From:

Nancy Gish <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

T. S. Eliot Discussion forum.

Date:

Mon, 8 Dec 2003 21:19:12 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (132 lines)

It is Julian of Norwich, REVELATIONS OF DIVINE LOVE.  It is the
source of the last lines of 4Q.
Nancy


Date sent:              Mon, 8 Dec 2003 16:15:22 -0800
Send reply to:          "T. S. Eliot Discussion forum." <[log in to unmask]>
From:                   Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:                Re: Poets on poetry
To:                     [log in to unmask]

Well if we are going to get into the area of the
mystics, one of my favourite, I would truly appreciate
help in finding a text which has elluded me for some time.
Perhaps it was the author of THE CLOUD OF UNKNOWING or
possibly, but I don't thnk so, Julian of Norwich, who had
an extensive and very beautiful meditation on God as mother.

I read it long, long ago when I was very much in a mystical
mode, and have since, not been able to retrieve it.

Thanks,
Peter

-----Original Message-----
From: Nancy Gish [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 8:07 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Poets on poetry


Dear Richard and all,

Interestingly, Denise Levertov, like Eliot, became increasingly
religious and even orthodox in later life.  She joined the Catholic
Church largely because of the liberation theology that challenged
our political policies in Central America and because of people like
Archbishop Romero and Dorothy Day, but she seemed to have
increasingly found in Christianity a form of what I think Richard
means by "mythic" that allowed for a better way of living in the
world.  Her religious poems of the 80s, especially, increasingly
define a way to see body and spirit as fused in Jesus, Mary, and--
interestingly--Julian of Norwich.
Nancy


Date sent:              Mon, 8 Dec 2003 07:53:46 -0700
Send reply to:          "T. S. Eliot Discussion forum."
<[log in to unmask]>
From:                   Richard Seddon <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:                Re: Poets on poetry
To:                     [log in to unmask]

Peter

Now wait just a minute.

Where in the preceding discussions, until you raised your head and
thought it getting curiouser and curiouser, did any one make any
value judgments about any other's understanding of the human
condition?  Perhaps you are referring to my comment about not
riding in a flying machine derived from unverified science.  Flying
carpets, which I would ride on, are part of a mythic world view and
not a pseudo-scientific one.

Your basket of grade four thinkers would have to include Freud,
Jung, Kerenyi, Kroeber, Malinowski, Robert Duncan, T. S. Eliot,
Robinson Jeffers, Charles Olson, Claude Levi-Strauss, Karl Popper,
Bradley, Nietzsche, Plato and the list goes on.  Many have tried to
understand the difference between mythic societies and their own
version of "modern" society.

I am specifically trying to understand it in terms of the 40's and 50's
California poets and the poets of the Black Mountain school: Duncan,
Jeffers, Creeley, Spicer, Olson, Levertov, Ginsberg, Snyder and others.
These poets were serious critics of their modern western society.   They
were all heavily influenced by TSE, Pound, Joyce and Yeats.  In at least
one case, Duncan, they suffered severe discrimination at the hands of
modern western culture. Jeffers became so disgusted with western society
that he completely rejected a man centered world view and came up with his
"Inhumanism".   All of these poets reacted strongly to what they conceived
of as faults inherent in western society's rejection of myth.
Understanding myth as opposed to western societies is crucial to
understanding them.

Somehow you have turned the discussion from how people
immersed in a mythic world view their world into a value filled
discussion and then used the turn to hurl semi-hidden knives.

If a person's serious thinking is always going to raise disdain and
approbation from the list how can serious learning take place.  If you
have serious problems with what I was writing please tell me.  If you are
going to change what I am saying into something you can attack please
don't.  If you don't understand, ask questions until you do.  If you know
nothing about the subject then perhaps you can join me in learning about
it.  If you find it completely lacking in intellectual merit then I would
appreciate being informed, privately if possible,  of your professional
opinion.

BTW:  I would recommend that you read "Ulysses, Order, and
Myth".  I think you will find little about Myth and much about a new
way to structure a literary work using myth.  Your quote from Eliot
does not support your preceding argument as your use would
suggest.

Rick Seddon
McIntosh, NM

Peter wrote

The tendency to think we can learn anything
about the validity of someone's understanding
of the human condition, by reducing that someone's
working system to its bare knuckle implications,
and then say it is wrong, inadequate, misguided
or whatever, is worthy of about Grade Four thinking
and little more.

What is important for our discussion is the role
of the mythic method as Eliot identified it, in helping
us to come to terms with the chaos of the modern vortex,
which, because our technology is driven into a frenzy
of change by its core dynamic of electricity moving at
the speed of light, is causing our ordinary perceptual
modes to become completely disoriented.

from Eliot, T.S. "Ulysses, Order, and Myth" Dial 75.5 (November
1923):201.

Myth is simply a way of controlling, of ordering, of giving a shape
and a significance to the immence panorama of futility and anarchy
which is contemporary history.

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

Advanced Options


Options

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password


Search Archives

Search Archives


Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe


Archives

October 2021
September 2021
August 2021
July 2021
June 2021
May 2021
April 2021
March 2021
February 2021
January 2021
December 2020
November 2020
October 2020
September 2020
August 2020
July 2020
June 2020
May 2020
April 2020
March 2020
February 2020
January 2020
December 2019
November 2019
October 2019
September 2019
August 2019
July 2019
June 2019
May 2019
April 2019
March 2019
February 2019
January 2019
December 2018
November 2018
October 2018
September 2018
August 2018
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
April 2018
March 2018
February 2018
January 2018
December 2017
November 2017
October 2017
September 2017
August 2017
July 2017
June 2017
May 2017
April 2017
March 2017
February 2017
January 2017
December 2016
November 2016
October 2016
September 2016
August 2016
July 2016
June 2016
May 2016
April 2016
March 2016
February 2016
January 2016
December 2015
November 2015
October 2015
September 2015
August 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
July 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
November 2013
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
May 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
October 2006
September 2006
August 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006
April 2006
March 2006
February 2006
January 2006
December 2005
November 2005
October 2005
September 2005
August 2005
July 2005
June 2005
May 2005
April 2005
March 2005
February 2005
January 2005
December 2004
November 2004
October 2004
September 2004
August 2004
July 2004
June 2004
May 2004
April 2004
March 2004
February 2004
January 2004
December 2003
November 2003
October 2003
September 2003
August 2003
July 2003
June 2003
May 2003
April 2003
March 2003
February 2003
January 2003
December 2002
November 2002
October 2002
September 2002
August 2002
July 2002
June 2002
May 2002
April 2002
March 2002
February 2002
January 2002
December 2001
November 2001
October 2001
September 2001
August 2001
July 2001
June 2001
May 2001
April 2001
March 2001
February 2001
January 2001
March 1996
February 1996
January 1996
December 1995
November 1995

ATOM RSS1 RSS2



PO.MISSOURI.EDU

Secured by F-Secure Anti-Virus CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager