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TSE  October 2003

TSE October 2003

Subject:

Re: Waste land - A question about Mrs. Porter

From:

Tole_errante <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

T. S. Eliot Discussion forum.

Date:

Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:50:34 -0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (771 lines)

Thank you for asking... about Waste Land

I would be interested in knowing more about the following 3 lines:

O the moon shone bright on Mrs. Porter
And on her daughter
They wash their feet in soda water
(From Waste land written in 1922)

The 3 lines I was told refered to the third limerick of the Redwing sequence
(see Legman's anthologies for the others):

Oh, the moon shines tonight on Mrs. Porter,
She had a daughter who was a slaughterer;
To keep the odor
From growing stronger
She washed her c-nt with caustic soda.

Several versions of this limerick sequence exist and the original date and
author are unknown (by me at least).
Legman  gave a 1935 publishing date for the above mentionned one but the
limerick was possibly????? used before 1922

Does anybody know if the limerick pre-dated Waste land (or another version
of it maybe pre-dated it...) or if it was written after it ...
Was Eliot refering to it?
and What is the most probable meaning behind these 3 lines ...

Sorry about showing that limerick, I do not like it, but I am very
interested by possible connections and my question is not a bad joke.

Regards,
Rolland.

----- Original Message -----
From: Automatic digest processor <[log in to unmask]>
To: Recipients of TSE digests <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: 28 October 2003 06:00
Subject: TSE Digest - 26 Oct 2003 to 27 Oct 2003 (#2003-244)


> There are 8 messages totalling 616 lines in this issue.
>
> Topics of the day:
>
>   1. Eliot Society (8)
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date:    Mon, 27 Oct 2003 10:56:26 -0500
> From:    William Gray <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Eliot Society
>
> --=_AFF10025.D4B5E1E8
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> Marcia,
>     I got to be on a panel discussion of The Waste Land this year. It was
=
> a fantastic conference. Some highlights:
> =20
> Friday
> *Chris Buttram confirmed that next year's conference will be in June in =
> the UK. I'm sure most of you had already heard about this, just not the =
> date. The conference will be something like a week long, with trips to 3 =
> of the 4Q sites, as well as a closing soiree of sorts. Many interested in
=
> Eliot have been invited (and Chris asked that if any of us know any, to =
> invite them as well) to this closing evening, including Mrs. Valerie =
> Eliot, who may or may not be able to attend. I can't recall the speaker =
> for next year -- I'll look it up and get back with you on that.
> *Chris Joyce's paper on spiritual appeasement in Eliot's poetry was quite
=
> interesting and demonstrated a mastery of Eliot's work while trying to =
> draw some conclusions.
> =20
> Saturday
> *Prof. Ron Schuchard gave a fantastic paper on Ted Hughes and the way he =
> was influenced by Eliot.
> *Carole Seymour-Jones came in from the UK to talk about her writing of =
> Painted Shadow. I had not read the book ahead of time, and had been biased
=
> against her work, thinking it was thesis-pushing, but was impressed with =
> her candor and research.
> *Randal Woods gave a paper trying to establish similarities of thought =
> between Kant and Eliot. It was pretty good.
> *The keynote address was from Leon Surette, who spoke on Pale Ramon (from
=
> Wallace Stevens' "The Idea of Order at Key West"), as well as connections
=
> between a possible candidate for Ramon (the actual Ramon Fernandez), =
> Stevens, and Eliot.
> *In the afternoon there was a panel on The Waste Land which included 5 =
> graduate students (myself among them). Papers were on:
> --the ethics of presence in TWL
> --the influence of Alexander Pope on the writing of TWL
> --the motif of hair in the poem and its connection with repression
> --Eliot's unwilling philosophy of authorship and TWL
> --the mysterious "third" in TWL and its connection with the mysterious =
> aspect of the inner self that is recognized as foreign
> =20
> Sunday
> *Man-Sik Lee (a fairly prominent member of the Korean TSE society, which =
> is significantly larger than its American counterpart) gave a
more-interest=
> ing-than-expected comparison of Eliot and Derrida, addressing similarities
=
> of idea and practice.
> *Anju Dhadda gave a rather long (it was the last one) but also rather =
> interesting paper suggesting that at the base of all of Eliot's thought =
> was his conception of time. There were some substantial contributions to =
> thinking about Eliot; I hope she is able to publish them.
> =20
> If you have any other questions, I'm not sure if I was the only one from =
> the list there or not. I would be delighted to give more information, if =
> you would care for any.
> =20
> Best wishes,
> Will
> =20
>
>
> >>> [log in to unmask] 10/26/03 02:00PM >>>
> No one has reported on this year's conference.  Were any list members in
> attendance?
>
> Marcia
>
>
>
> --=_AFF10025.D4B5E1E8
> Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
> <HTML><HEAD>
> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html;
charset=3Diso-8859-1"=
> >
> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
> <BODY style=3D"MARGIN-TOP: 2px; FONT: 12pt Garamond; MARGIN-LEFT: 2px">
> <DIV>Marcia,</DIV>
> <DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I got to be on a panel discussion of <EM>The =
> Waste=20
> Land</EM> this year. It was a fantastic conference. Some highlights:</DIV>
> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
> <DIV>Friday</DIV>
> <DIV>*Chris Buttram confirmed that next year's conference will be in June
=
> in the=20
> UK. I'm sure most of you had already heard about this, just not the date.
=
> The=20
> conference will be something like a week long, with trips to 3 of the 4Q =
> sites,=20
> as well as a closing soiree of sorts. Many interested in Eliot have been =
> invited=20
> (and Chris asked that if any of us know any, to invite them as well) to =
> this=20
> closing evening, including Mrs. Valerie Eliot, who may or may not be able
=
> to=20
> attend. I can't recall the speaker for next year -- I'll look it up and =
> get back=20
> with you on that.</DIV>
> <DIV>*Chris Joyce's paper on spiritual appeasement in Eliot's poetry was =
> quite=20
> interesting and demonstrated a mastery of Eliot's work while trying to =
> draw some=20
> conclusions.</DIV>
> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
> <DIV>Saturday</DIV>
> <DIV>*Prof. Ron Schuchard gave a fantastic paper on Ted Hughes and the way
=
> he=20
> was influenced by Eliot.</DIV>
> <DIV>*Carole Seymour-Jones came in from the UK to talk about her writing =
> of=20
> Painted Shadow. I had not read the book ahead of time, and had been =
> biased=20
> against her work, thinking it was thesis-pushing, but was impressed with =
> her=20
> candor and research.</DIV>
> <DIV>*Randal Woods gave a paper trying to establish similarities of =
> thought=20
> between Kant and Eliot. It was pretty good.</DIV>
> <DIV>*The keynote address was from Leon Surette, who spoke on Pale Ramon =
> (from=20
> Wallace Stevens' "The Idea of Order at Key West"), as well as connections=
> =20
> between a possible candidate for Ramon (the actual Ramon Fernandez), =
> Stevens,=20
> and Eliot.</DIV>
> <DIV>*In the afternoon there was a panel on The Waste Land which included
=
> 5=20
> graduate students (myself among them). Papers were on:</DIV>
> <DIV>--the ethics of presence in TWL</DIV>
> <DIV>--the influence of Alexander Pope on the writing of TWL</DIV>
> <DIV>--the motif of hair in the poem and its connection with
repression</DI=
> V>
> <DIV>--Eliot's unwilling philosophy of authorship and TWL</DIV>
> <DIV>--the mysterious "third" in TWL and its connection with the
mysterious=
> =20
> aspect of the inner self that is recognized as foreign</DIV>
> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
> <DIV>Sunday</DIV>
> <DIV>*Man-Sik Lee (a fairly prominent member of the Korean TSE society, =
> which is=20
> significantly larger than its American counterpart) gave a=20
> more-interesting-than-expected comparison of Eliot and Derrida,
addressing=
> =20
> similarities of idea and practice.</DIV>
> <DIV>*Anju Dhadda gave a rather long (it was the last one) but also =
> rather=20
> interesting paper suggesting that at the base of all of Eliot's thought =
> was his=20
> conception of time. There were some substantial contributions to thinking
=
> about=20
> Eliot; I hope she is able to publish them.</DIV>
> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
> <DIV>If you have any other questions, I'm not sure if I was the only one =
> from=20
> the list there or not. I would be delighted to give more information, if =
> you=20
> would care for any.</DIV>
> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
> <DIV>Best wishes,</DIV>
> <DIV>Will</DIV>
> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
> <DIV><BR><BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; [log in to unmask] 10/26/03 02:00PM
&gt;&gt;&gt;<=
> BR>No=20
> one has reported on this year's conference.&nbsp; Were any list members=20
> in<BR>attendance?<BR><BR>Marcia<BR></DIV></BODY></HTML>
>
> --=_AFF10025.D4B5E1E8--
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date:    Mon, 27 Oct 2003 12:33:53 EST
> From:    Kate Troy <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Eliot Society
>
> --part1_ac.49c35cfb.2cceb101_boundary
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> In a message dated 10/27/2003 11:00:12 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> [log in to unmask] writes:
>
>
> > *The keynote address was from Leon Surette, who spoke on Pale Ramon
(from
> > Wallace Stevens' "The Idea of Order at Key West"), as well as
connections
> > between a possible candidate for Ramon (the actual Ramon Fernandez),
Stevens, and
> > Eliot.
> >
>
> Do you remember who his possible candidates for Ramon were?
>
> --part1_ac.49c35cfb.2cceb101_boundary
> Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"
FACE=
> =3D"Verdana" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 10/27/2003 11:00:12 AM Eastern
St=
> andard Time, [log in to unmask] writes:<BR>
> <BR>
> </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"
SIZE=3D2=
>  FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
> <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid;
MARGIN-LEFT=
> : 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">*The keynote address was from
L=
> eon Surette, who spoke on Pale Ramon (from Wallace Stevens' "The Idea of
Ord=
> er at Key West"), as well as connections between a possible candidate for
Ra=
> mon (the actual Ramon Fernandez), Stevens, and Eliot.<BR>
> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
> </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"
SIZE=3D2=
>  FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Verdana" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
> Do you remember who his possible candidates for Ramon were?</FONT></HTML>
>
> --part1_ac.49c35cfb.2cceb101_boundary--
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date:    Mon, 27 Oct 2003 12:56:20 -0500
> From:    William Gray <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Eliot Society
>
> --=_D7897841.BDDC8897
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> He concentrated on the man actually named Ramon Fernandez, writer, =
> literary critic and scholar of French and Mexican literature from the =
> early part of the 20th century. At two or three points after he wrote "The
=
> Idea of Order at Key West" Stevens responded to questions about whether he
=
> intended the poem to point to the actual Ramon Fernandez. He replied by =
> saying he definitely did not intend the connection, so much so that Leon =
> Surette seemed to be implying that it was a case of protesting too much. =
> It was definitely a humorous point in the paper. As far as I can recall, =
> he didn't discuss any other candidates. Sorry if I gave that impression.
> =20
> Cheers,
> Will
>
> >>> [log in to unmask] 10/27/03 12:33PM >>>
> In a message dated 10/27/2003 11:00:12 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[log in to unmask]
> EDU writes:
>
>
>
> *The keynote address was from Leon Surette, who spoke on Pale Ramon (from
=
> Wallace Stevens' "The Idea of Order at Key West"), as well as connections
=
> between a possible candidate for Ramon (the actual Ramon Fernandez), =
> Stevens, and Eliot.
>
>
> Do you remember who his possible candidates for Ramon were?=20
>
> --=_D7897841.BDDC8897
> Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
> <HTML><HEAD>
> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html;
charset=3Diso-8859-1"=
> >
> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
> <BODY style=3D"MARGIN-TOP: 2px; FONT: 12pt Garamond; MARGIN-LEFT: 2px">
> <DIV>He concentrated on the man actually named Ramon Fernandez, writer, =
> literary=20
> critic and scholar of French and Mexican literature from the early part of
=
> the=20
> 20th century. At two or three points after he wrote "The Idea of Order at
=
> Key=20
> West" Stevens responded to questions about whether he intended the poem to
=
> point=20
> to the actual Ramon Fernandez. He replied by saying he definitely did not
=
> intend=20
> the connection, so much so that Leon Surette seemed to be implying that it
=
> was a=20
> case of protesting too much. It was definitely a&nbsp;humorous
point&nbsp;i=
> n the=20
> paper. As far as I can recall, he didn't discuss any other candidates. =
> Sorry if=20
> I gave that impression.</DIV>
> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
> <DIV>Cheers,</DIV>
> <DIV>Will<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; [log in to unmask] 10/27/03 12:33PM=20
> &gt;&gt;&gt;<BR><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT lang=3D0 face=3DVerdana
=
> size=3D2=20
> FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">In a message dated 10/27/2003 11:00:12 AM Eastern =
> Standard=20
> Time, [log in to unmask] writes:<BR><BR></FONT><FONT lang=3D0=20
> style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 =
> size=3D2=20
> FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"><BR></DIV>
> <BLOCKQUOTE=20
> style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
> solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"=20
> TYPE=3D"CITE">*The keynote address was from Leon Surette, who spoke on =
> Pale=20
>   Ramon (from Wallace Stevens' "The Idea of Order at Key West"), as well =
> as=20
>   connections between a possible candidate for Ramon (the actual Ramon=20
>   Fernandez), Stevens, and Eliot.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR></FONT><FONT =
> lang=3D0=20
> style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" face=3DVerdana color=3D#000000 =
> size=3D2=20
> FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"><BR>Do you remember who his possible candidates for =
> Ramon=20
> were?</FONT> </FONT></BODY></HTML>
>
> --=_D7897841.BDDC8897--
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date:    Mon, 27 Oct 2003 14:06:59 EST
> From:    Kate Troy <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Eliot Society
>
> --part1_1d8.133270c9.2ccec6d3_boundary
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> In a message dated 10/27/2003 1:00:48 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[log in to unmask]
> writes:
>
>
> >
> > He concentrated on the man actually named Ramon Fernandez, writer,
literary
> > critic and scholar of French and Mexican literature from the early part
of
> > the 20th century. At two or three points after he wrote "The Idea of
Order at
> > Key West" Stevens responded to questions about whether he intended the
poem to
> > point to the actual Ramon Fernandez. He replied by saying he definitely
did
> > not intend the connection, so much so that Leon Surette seemed to be
implying
> > that it was a case of protesting too much. It was definitely a humorous
> > point in the paper. As far as I can recall, he didn't discuss any other
> > candidates. Sorry if I gave that impression.
> >
> >
>
>
> --part1_1d8.133270c9.2ccec6d3_boundary
> Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"
FACE=
> =3D"Verdana" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 10/27/2003 1:00:48 PM Eastern
Sta=
> ndard Time, [log in to unmask] writes:<BR>
> <BR>
> </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"
SIZE=3D2=
>  FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
> <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid;
MARGIN-LEFT=
> : 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
> He concentrated on the man actually named Ramon Fernandez, writer,
literary=20=
> critic and scholar of French and Mexican literature from the early part of
t=
> he 20th century. At two or three points after he wrote "The Idea of Order
at=
>  Key West" Stevens responded to questions about whether he intended the
poem=
>  to point to the actual Ramon Fernandez. He replied by saying he
definitely=20=
> did not intend the connection, so much so that Leon Surette seemed to be
imp=
> lying that it was a case of protesting too much. It was definitely a
humorou=
> s point in the paper. As far as I can recall, he didn't discuss any other
ca=
> ndidates. Sorry if I gave that impression.<BR>
>  <BR>
> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
> </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"
SIZE=3D2=
>  FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Verdana" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
> </FONT></HTML>
> --part1_1d8.133270c9.2ccec6d3_boundary--
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date:    Mon, 27 Oct 2003 14:11:02 EST
> From:    Kate Troy <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Eliot Society
>
> --part1_1e.1b346852.2ccec7c6_boundary
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> In a message dated 10/27/2003 1:00:48 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[log in to unmask]
> writes:
>
>
> >
> > He concentrated on the man actually named Ramon Fernandez, writer,
literary
> > critic and scholar of French and Mexican literature from the early part
of
> > the 20th century. At two or three points after he wrote "The Idea of
Order at
> > Key West" Stevens responded to questions about whether he intended the
poem to
> > point to the actual Ramon Fernandez. He replied by saying he definitely
did
> > not intend the connection, so much so that Leon Surette seemed to be
implying
> > that it was a case of protesting too much. It was definitely a humorous
> > point in the paper. As far as I can recall, he didn't discuss any other
> > candidates. Sorry if I gave that impression.
> >
> >
>
> Yes, this is one of thetheories of who Ramon was supposed to be.  Another
is
> that Ramon Fernandez was an actual person living in the Key West at the
time,
> a friend of Stevens.  Yet another, and this theory should be interesting
to
> Eliot enthusiasts, is that Ramon Fernandez was Stevens' secret lover and
that
> Ramon Fernandez was not actually the person's name, that Stevens changed
it, but
> he might of been of Cuban extraction.
>
> --part1_1e.1b346852.2ccec7c6_boundary
> Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"
FACE=
> =3D"Verdana" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 10/27/2003 1:00:48 PM Eastern
Sta=
> ndard Time, [log in to unmask] writes:<BR>
> <BR>
> </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"
SIZE=3D2=
>  FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
> <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid;
MARGIN-LEFT=
> : 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
> He concentrated on the man actually named Ramon Fernandez, writer,
literary=20=
> critic and scholar of French and Mexican literature from the early part of
t=
> he 20th century. At two or three points after he wrote "The Idea of Order
at=
>  Key West" Stevens responded to questions about whether he intended the
poem=
>  to point to the actual Ramon Fernandez. He replied by saying he
definitely=20=
> did not intend the connection, so much so that Leon Surette seemed to be
imp=
> lying that it was a case of protesting too much. It was definitely a
humorou=
> s point in the paper. As far as I can recall, he didn't discuss any other
ca=
> ndidates. Sorry if I gave that impression.<BR>
>  <BR>
> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
> </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"
SIZE=3D2=
>  FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Verdana" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
> Yes, this is one of thetheories of who Ramon was supposed to be.&nbsp;
Anoth=
> er is that Ramon Fernandez was an actual person living in the Key West at
th=
> e time, a friend of Stevens.&nbsp; Yet another, and this theory should be
in=
> teresting to Eliot enthusiasts, is that Ramon Fernandez was Stevens'
secret=20=
> lover and that Ramon Fernandez was not actually the person's name, that
Stev=
> ens changed it, but he might of been of Cuban extraction.</FONT></HTML>
>
> --part1_1e.1b346852.2ccec7c6_boundary--
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date:    Mon, 27 Oct 2003 15:01:56 -0500
> From:    William Gray <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Eliot Society
>
> --=_603ECFD3.3E5F0BE9
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> Yes, in fact Leon pointed out that Stevens' claimed he had just pulled the
=
> names "Ramon" and "Fernandez" out of the air, since they were such common
=
> Mexican names. Sounded just a bit suspicious to me from someone so careful
=
> about most everything else.
>
> >>> [log in to unmask] 10/27/03 02:11PM >>>
> In a message dated 10/27/2003 1:00:48 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[log in to unmask]
> DU writes:
>
>
>
> He concentrated on the man actually named Ramon Fernandez, writer, =
> literary critic and scholar of French and Mexican literature from the =
> early part of the 20th century. At two or three points after he wrote "The
=
> Idea of Order at Key West" Stevens responded to questions about whether he
=
> intended the poem to point to the actual Ramon Fernandez. He replied by =
> saying he definitely did not intend the connection, so much so that Leon =
> Surette seemed to be implying that it was a case of protesting too much. =
> It was definitely a humorous point in the paper. As far as I can recall, =

> he didn't discuss any other candidates. Sorry if I gave that impression.
>
>
>
> Yes, this is one of thetheories of who Ramon was supposed to be.  Another
=
> is that Ramon Fernandez was an actual person living in the Key West at the
=
> time, a friend of Stevens.  Yet another, and this theory should be =
> interesting to Eliot enthusiasts, is that Ramon Fernandez was Stevens' =
> secret lover and that Ramon Fernandez was not actually the person's name,
=
> that Stevens changed it, but he might of been of Cuban extraction.=20
>
> --=_603ECFD3.3E5F0BE9
> Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
> <HTML><HEAD>
> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html;
charset=3Diso-8859-1"=
> >
> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
> <BODY style=3D"MARGIN-TOP: 2px; FONT: 12pt Garamond; MARGIN-LEFT: =
> 2px">Yes, in=20
> fact Leon pointed out that Stevens' claimed he had just pulled the names =
> "Ramon"=20
> and "Fernandez" out of the air, since they were such common Mexican =
> names.=20
> Sounded just a bit suspicious to me from someone so careful about most=20
> everything else.<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; [log in to unmask] 10/27/03 02:11PM=20
> &gt;&gt;&gt;<BR><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT lang=3D0 face=3DVerdana
=
> size=3D2=20
> FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">In a message dated 10/27/2003 1:00:48 PM Eastern =
> Standard=20
> Time, [log in to unmask] writes:<BR><BR></FONT><FONT lang=3D0=20
> style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 =
> size=3D2=20
> FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"><BR>
> <BLOCKQUOTE=20
> style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
> solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"=20
> TYPE=3D"CITE"><BR>He concentrated on the man actually named Ramon =
> Fernandez,=20
>   writer, literary critic and scholar of French and Mexican literature =
> from the=20
>   early part of the 20th century. At two or three points after he wrote =
> "The=20
>   Idea of Order at Key West" Stevens responded to questions about whether
=
> he=20
>   intended the poem to point to the actual Ramon Fernandez. He replied by
=
> saying=20
>   he definitely did not intend the connection, so much so that Leon =
> Surette=20
>   seemed to be implying that it was a case of protesting too much. It =
> was=20
>   definitely a humorous point in the paper. As far as I can recall, he =
> didn't=20
>   discuss any other candidates. Sorry if I gave that=20
> impression.<BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR></FONT><FONT lang=3D0=20
> style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" face=3DVerdana color=3D#000000 =
> size=3D2=20
> FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"><BR>Yes, this is one of thetheories of who Ramon was
=
> supposed=20
> to be.&nbsp; Another is that Ramon Fernandez was an actual person living =
> in the=20
> Key West at the time, a friend of Stevens.&nbsp; Yet another, and this =
> theory=20
> should be interesting to Eliot enthusiasts, is that Ramon Fernandez was =
> Stevens'=20
> secret lover and that Ramon Fernandez was not actually the person's name,
=
> that=20
> Stevens changed it, but he might of been of Cuban extraction.</FONT>=20
> </FONT></BODY></HTML>
>
> --=_603ECFD3.3E5F0BE9--
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date:    Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:21:19 -0500
> From:    Marcia Karp <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Eliot Society
>
> Thanks, Will, for the full and fine report.
>
> Marcia
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date:    Mon, 27 Oct 2003 18:50:09 EST
> From:    Kate Troy <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Eliot Society
>
> --part1_148.1b5a530f.2ccf0931_boundary
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> In a message dated 10/27/2003 11:00:12 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> [log in to unmask] writes:
>
>
> >
> > If you have any other questions, I'm not sure if I was the only one from
the
> > list there or not. I would be delighted to give more information, if you
> > would care for any.
> >
>
> I wish I had been there.  The speakers and their subjects of discourse
appear
> most interesting.  Where was this conference held?  And was there also any
> dinners or cocktail parties with the speakers?
>
> --part1_148.1b5a530f.2ccf0931_boundary
> Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"
FACE=
> =3D"Verdana" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 10/27/2003 11:00:12 AM Eastern
St=
> andard Time, [log in to unmask] writes:<BR>
> <BR>
> </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"
SIZE=3D2=
>  FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
> <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid;
MARGIN-LEFT=
> : 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
> If you have any other questions, I'm not sure if I was the only one from
the=
>  list there or not. I would be delighted to give more information, if you
wo=
> uld care for any.<BR>
> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
> </FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"
SIZE=3D2=
>  FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Verdana" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
> I wish I had been there.&nbsp; The speakers and their subjects of
discourse=20=
> appear most interesting.&nbsp; Where was this conference held?&nbsp; And
was=
>  there also any dinners or cocktail parties with the
speakers?</FONT></HTML>
>
> --part1_148.1b5a530f.2ccf0931_boundary--
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of TSE Digest - 26 Oct 2003 to 27 Oct 2003 (#2003-244)
> **********************************************************

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