LISTSERV mailing list manager LISTSERV 16.0

Help for TSE Archives


TSE Archives

TSE Archives


TSE@PO.MISSOURI.EDU


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Proportional Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

TSE Home

TSE Home

TSE  December 2002

TSE December 2002

Subject:

Why are we doing this?

From:

Nancy Gish <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

T. S. Eliot Discussion forum.

Date:

Mon, 9 Dec 2002 10:45:00 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (156 lines)

I wonder why we are all angry with one another.  I wonder why we call
each other unkind names and berate one another as if the failure of great
parties or systems were transferrable.  I think we should all call a
Christmas peace.  (I use Christmas not to focus on Christianity but to
make the obvious allusion.)  I have never understood why a list of people
who only know one another by texts and so cannot really know one
another makes personal judgements.  We all can debate ideas fiercely
without directing them at persons, can we not?

I think Carroll's comparison was extreme, but I also understand that if we
have no compassion for dying and tortured Palestinians we can have none
for others either.  That terrible mess is not one sided, and blaming all or
most of it on either side does not take the other into account.
Nancy



Date sent:              Mon, 9 Dec 2002 09:27:20 -0600
Send reply to:          "T. S. Eliot Discussion forum." <[log in to unmask]>
From:                   Carrol Cox <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:                Re: Over my limit in nonsense from Carrol
To:                     [log in to unmask]

[log in to unmask] wrote:
>
> In a message dated 12/8/02 3:25:10 PM EST, [log in to unmask] writes:
>
> > Anyone who disapproves of Hitler's treatment
> > of the Jews must, to be consistent,
> > equally disapprove of the Israeli
> > treatment of Palestinians.
> >
> >  Carrol
>
> "Hitler's treatment of the Jews"
>
> By "treatment" you mean, of course, the mass roundups of a country's
> own, unarmed citizens into camps from which they would be poisoned to
> death by

You leap to the end of the story. What you need to look like are the
years prior to that. What form the "final solution" will take in
Palestine remains to be seen. I see little difference between what is
happening to Palestinians in their own homeland now with what happened to
German Jews in the pre-ear period, or even the early years of the war.

I should not have referred to Hitler, however, for another reason. I
violated an old law of Newsgroups -- the first person to refer to the
Nazis in loses the argument. And this 'rule,' flippant as it seems, points
to a much more serious matter.

It makes sense, at the present time, to point out that the U.S. is
threatening to become a police state. There is NO danger of fascism. The
tendency to call all authoritarian measures or structures "fascist" is as
silly today as it would have been in 1930 to call Hitler a "Kaiserist."
Fascism was a _species_ of authoritarian rule, a very viciou species, but
ony a species, not the general type. Jim Crow in the south was, for those
it ruled, as terrifying as was life in Germany (before 1940) for Jews, but
it is silly to call the Jim Crow South "Fascist." Leopold in the Congo,
invading Europeans in the western hemisphere, most dramatically Colombus
in Hispaniola, all committed crimes of the same order of magnitude as
Hitler's crimes, but none of these were fascist. (Chipe Berlet and his
colleagues argue for a form of fascism they call "clerical fascism, of
which the Taliban is an example. They may be correct, but they are also
very emphatic in denying the use of "fascist" or "Nazi" as all-purpose
epithets for nasty governmental policy.

And just as equating "fascism" with all repressive (or police) states
muddies the waters of discourse, so seeing "The Final Solution" as _the_
model of genocide muddies debate on genocide. So my post was overhasty and
dissolute in its diction. And you then became equally dissolute in your
diction by equating "Hitler's treatment of the Jews" with "The Final
Solution," thus blurring the horror of what had _preceded_ the final
solution.

A more appropriate parallel to what is hapeening to the Palestinians is
the treatment of the Indians by Euro-Americans.

Carrol

A post from another list. Joanna Bujes's parents, Rumanian Jews, came to
this country when she was 10. She is just one of millions of Jews who are
_not_ Zionist and who _not_ consider my post "nonsense."

joanna bujes wrote:
>
> Thank you Brad,
>
> Finally, this issue makes it to the LBO mailing list! Yes, on this
> topic, the silence has been deafening out there.
>

The rage Brad feels is felt by many -- and is part of the reason the
issue only intermittently appears on this or other left lists. We did not
feel this same choked rage during the Vietnam War because we were _doing_
something about it. Our rage found outlet in action.

Carrol

                The Earth is Closing on Us
                        Mahmoud Darwish

The earth is closing on us, pushing us through the last passage, and
  we tear off our limbs to pass through.
The earth is squeezng us. I wishe were its wheat so we could die
  and live again. I wish the earth was our mother
So she'd be kind to us. I wish we were picturesd on the rocks for our
  dreams to carry
As mirrors. We saw the faces of those to be killed by the last of us in
  the last defence of the soul.
We cried over their children's feast. We saw the faces of those who'll
  throw our children
Out of the windows of this last space. Our star will hang up mirrors.
Where should we go after the last frontiers? Where should the birds
  go after the last sky?
Where should the plants sleep after the last breath of air? We will
  write our names with scarlet steam.
We will cut off the hand of the song to be finished by our flesh.
We will die here, here in the last passage. Here and here our blood
  will plant its olive tree.

------
[Note: autumn in the next poem should be seen as the autumn of the seige
of Beirut.]

                We are Entitled to Love Autumn
                        Mahmud Dawish

We are entitled to love the end of this autumn and ask:
Is there room for another autumn in the field to rest our bodies like
  coal?
An autumn lowering its leaves like gold. I wish we were fig leaves
  I wish we were an abanadoned plant
To witness the change of the seasons. I wish we didn't say goodbye
  to the south of the eye so as to ask what
Our fathers had asked when they flew on the tip of the spear. Poetry
  and God's name will be merciful to us.
We are entitled to dryu the nights of lovely women, and talk
  about what
Shortens the night for two strangers waiting for the north to reach
  the compass.
An autumn. Indeed we are entitled to smell the scent of this autumn,
  to ask the night for a dream.
Does a dream fall sick like the dreamers? An autumn, an autumn.
  Can a people be born on the guillotine?
We are entitled to die the way we want to die. Let the land hid in an
  ear of wheat.

----

Both poems from _Victims of a Map_, by Samih Al-Qasim, Adonis, & Mahmud
Darwish, London: Al Saqi Books, 1984. Translations by Abdullah al-Udhari.

P.S. While I have done it myself in the past on other maillists, I have
decided it is probably not best policy to put the names of list members in
subject lines.

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

Advanced Options


Options

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password


Search Archives

Search Archives


Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe


Archives

June 2019
May 2019
April 2019
March 2019
February 2019
January 2019
December 2018
November 2018
October 2018
September 2018
August 2018
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
April 2018
March 2018
February 2018
January 2018
December 2017
November 2017
October 2017
September 2017
August 2017
July 2017
June 2017
May 2017
April 2017
March 2017
February 2017
January 2017
December 2016
November 2016
October 2016
September 2016
August 2016
July 2016
June 2016
May 2016
April 2016
March 2016
February 2016
January 2016
December 2015
November 2015
October 2015
September 2015
August 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
July 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
November 2013
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
May 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
October 2006
September 2006
August 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006
April 2006
March 2006
February 2006
January 2006
December 2005
November 2005
October 2005
September 2005
August 2005
July 2005
June 2005
May 2005
April 2005
March 2005
February 2005
January 2005
December 2004
November 2004
October 2004
September 2004
August 2004
July 2004
June 2004
May 2004
April 2004
March 2004
February 2004
January 2004
December 2003
November 2003
October 2003
September 2003
August 2003
July 2003
June 2003
May 2003
April 2003
March 2003
February 2003
January 2003
December 2002
November 2002
October 2002
September 2002
August 2002
July 2002
June 2002
May 2002
April 2002
March 2002
February 2002
January 2002
December 2001
November 2001
October 2001
September 2001
August 2001
July 2001
June 2001
May 2001
April 2001
March 2001
February 2001
January 2001
March 1996
February 1996
January 1996
December 1995
November 1995

ATOM RSS1 RSS2



PO.MISSOURI.EDU

Secured by F-Secure Anti-Virus CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager