Or, in the words of the bumper sticker during Watergate:

DISHONOR WITH HONOR

On 26 Nov 2002, at 18:53, INGELBIEN RAPHAEL <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> From Tom K:
>
> > If you don't object to giving props to the Bolsheviks and Rosa Luxumberg,
> it's hard to see your
> > objection to doing the same for the Irish revolutionaries.
>
> I was only taking Ireland as an example. I admit I sometimes have a soft
> spot for Luxemburg, but you won't catch me saying that the Bolsheviks'
> attitude in the war only reflected their high-minded pacifist principles.
>
> > the "honor" was in taking a stand against a powerful entity that they
> considered oppressive, under
> circumstances where their chances for success (in any conventional sense)
> or survival were extremely dim <
>
> Call it honour if you must. With regard to the Easter Rising, some would
> call it foolishness, irresponsible behaviour, or a morbid fascination with
> martyrdom - the sort of mindset that makes suicide bombers feel good about
> blowing themselves up and taking civilians with them.
>
> Or maybe 'honour' is the real problem. In the context of war, it's hard to
> see how 'honour' can remain uncontaminated by the macho, chauvinistic,
> bellicose associations the term has in army propaganda.
>
> Did Eliot ever refer to 'honour' much?
>
> Yours,
>
> Raphaël
> [log in to unmask]