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TSE  May 2002

TSE May 2002

Subject:

Re: OT: responding to prejudice

From:

Kristina Morris Baumli <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 12 May 2002 14:43:49 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (345 lines)

--============_-1190893463==_ma============
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"

The "offensive views" proffered were these:

Sorry to disagree with you, Nancy, but after 911, most people I know, 
in fact all people I know, hate and distrust Arabs.  My best friend, 
Amy, lives in Maine, and she and others in her town do not have any 
good feelings toward Arabs (not that there are many there, expect the 
ones who slip through the Canadian border), so I don't know where in 
Maine you live in, but it must be an unusual area.

My initial (and retracted) reaction was inappropriate; you are citing 
my mea culpa.

My source for the 95% isextrapolated from the public source:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A49338-2002May7.html

which was part of a section discussing the payola scandal (radio 
stations are being compensated by Fox to run O'Reilly, rather than 
paying.

linked from the conservative/libertarian website: www.drudgereport.com

My source for the 50% was a party-sponsored  Zogby poll that was 
circulated among Democrats-- I believe it was also posted on ABC 
news, but I'm afraid that I lack the cite.

To clarify my position: I never reductively stated conservative or ( 
for that matter liberal) views are in themselves "offensive." 
However, I do think that reductive, racist comments like Ms. Troy's 
are quite likely to be found on talk radio shows, which have a strong 
reputation for being tendentious.

(the term" feminazi" comes to mind.)  I can't imagine NPR on the 
left, or George Will on the right saying anything so jejeune, so 
sophomoric, so reductive.

As far as my classroom free speech query goes-- after you have 
finished retching-- perhaps you could advise me how you would deal in 
a classroom  (my classes often include Arabs and other Muslims...) if 
a student made the above-cited statement?  It would test my abilities 
to allow open discourse-- fortunately, although I've had lots of 
arguments in my classes< I've never had to deal with something like 
that.



















>>From: Michelle Hadden <[log in to unmask]>
>>Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
>>To: [log in to unmask]
>>Subject: Re: OT:  responding to prejudice
>>Date: Sun, 12 May 2002 09:12:39 -0700 (PDT)
>
>i apologize for having to use somebody's reply to a reply to respond 
>to this, but the initial post escaped me. i also apologize for a 
>100% OT diatribe, but this pissed me off proper.
>
><snipped part about "efficacy of ignoring offfensive views">
>
>>It's of interest, (at least to me) that 50 percent of Americans get
>>at least part of their news from talk radio-- and 95 percent of 
>>talk radio hosts ascribe to views that  are categorized as 
>>conservative to extremely conservative.Rush Limbaugh, Ollie North, 
>>Bill (payola) O'Reilly are taking over the American 
>>conversation.... Thus, unfortunately, the views "so rudely forced" 
>>onto this list are what a large population hears every day..... 
>>thus, even--especially?--when they intrude in this venue,  it seems 
>>important to challenge these unfortunate ideas.
>
>in theory, the theory works out well enough, but practice is less 
>than perfect. i believe whomever authored this post endeavored to 
>call "views that are categorized as extremely conservative" as 
>"offensive." if this is not the case, please correct me, but it 
>seems to me that "these unfortunate views" are directly linked to 
>those expressed by, eg, talk radio hosts like Limbaugh, North and 
>more recently, O'Reilly.
>
>pardon?
>
>conservative opinions are automatically offensive?
>conservative opinions are automatically prejudiced?
>who died and left you big brother in charge?
>
>i consider myself something of an inveterate fence-straddler, one of 
>those exasperating centrists that usually flips a coin before 
>elections, but it really ever-so pisses the jumping jesus on a pogo 
>stick out of me when tripe like this gets proclaimed with unabashed 
>fervor. if 50% of americans (according to whom?) make an active 
>choice of picking up their news from talk radio, how can they find 
>it to be "offensive"? wouldn't they be able to escape "these 
>unfortunate views" with a flick of a button? wouldn't they have 
>hundreds of other different media outlets to lend their ears/eyes to?
>
>"95% of radio hosts ascribe to views that are categorized as 
>conservative to extremely conservative"--is this a real stat or an 
>apocryphal hyperbole? if the former, could you reference it, please? 
>could you specify who exactly categorizes these radio hosts as 
>conservative to extremely conservative, and according to what 
>yardstick? if the latter, here's a similar hyperbole: "flaming 
>liberals enjoy clubbing people over the head with bogus percentages 
>pulled out of their collective pinko ass."
>
>>  > I've never had a student like Kate in my classes. I've taught in 
>>public and private universities and underprivileged secondary 
>>schools) I take pride in allowing my students to voice their 
>>opinions openly, to disagree with me . I don't try to change their 
>>minds-- I try to teach them to argue.
>
>pardon me while i evacuate myself to retch in a corner.
>
>after succinctly relegating any and all sort of supposedly 
>conservative talk radio to the realm of "unfortunate views" you have 
>the gall to tag on a pathetic disclaimer of this sort? how does your 
>encouragement to voice one's opinions pan out? do you by any chance 
>accuse 50% of your classroom of perorating "offensive views"? or 
>maybe you affect a superior smile (the perennial favorite here at 
>berkeley) and subtly imply that the "unfortunate views" are the 
>result of youthful ignorance?
>
>on that note, how can any opinion be offensive is it because it 
>differs in stance from your own? if that is the case, maybe your own 
>opinions are equally offensive to me and maybe 50% of americans who 
>leave their dial alone when one of these dreaded "conservative to 
>extremely conservative" talk show hosts comes on.
>
>it irritates me to no end that a discussion prompted by the 
>assassination of a dutch right-winger somehow spiraled into what 
>seems to be a free-for-all mauling of conservative thinking. talk 
>about prejudice. for what it's worth, i'm equally repelled by 
>excesses to either side of the political spectrum, but this instance 
>seems particularly repugnant because there seems to be an underlying 
>trend of justification for this murder as the stifle of "offensive 
>views"--a parallel to the insane fervor europe's entire media to 
>deny the dubious character of lepen a chance to articulate anything.
>
>and if that's offensive, your being offended is offensive to me.
>
>
>/end_harm
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
>http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

--============_-1190893463==_ma============
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<!doctype html public "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<html><head><style type="text/css"><!--
blockquote, dl, ul, ol, li { margin-top: 0 ; margin-bottom: 0 }
 --></style><title>Re: OT: responding to
prejudice</title></head><body>
<div>The &quot;offensive views&quot; proffered were these:</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><tt><font size="-1">Sorry to disagree with you, Nancy, but after
911, most people I know, in fact all people I know, hate and distrust
Arabs.&nbsp; My best friend, Amy, lives in Maine, and she and others
in her town do not have any good feelings toward Arabs (not that there
are many there, expect the ones who slip through the Canadian border),
so I don't know where in Maine you live in, but it must be an unusual
area.</font></tt></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>My initial (and retracted) reaction was inappropriate; you are
citing my mea culpa.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>My source for the 95% isextrapolated from the public
source:</div>
<div><br></div>
<div
>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A49338-2002May7.html</div
>
<div><br></div>
<div>which was part of a section discussing the payola scandal (radio
stations are being compensated by Fox to run O'Reilly, rather than
paying.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>linked from the conservative/libertarian website:
www.drudgereport.com</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>My source for the 50% was a party-sponsored&nbsp; Zogby poll that
was circulated among Democrats-- I believe it was also posted on ABC
news, but I'm afraid that I lack the cite.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>To clarify my position: I never reductively stated conservative
or ( for that matter liberal) views are in themselves
&quot;offensive.&quot; However, I do think that reductive, racist
comments like Ms. Troy's are quite likely to be found on talk radio
shows, which have a strong reputation for being tendentious.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>(the term&quot; feminazi&quot; comes to mind.)&nbsp; I can't
imagine NPR on the left, or George Will on the right saying anything
so jejeune, so sophomoric, so reductive.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>As far as my classroom free speech query goes-- after you have
finished retching-- perhaps you could advise me how you would deal in
a classroom&nbsp; (my classes often include Arabs and other
Muslims...) if a student made the above-cited statement?&nbsp; It
would test my abilities to allow open discourse-- fortunately,
although I've had lots of&nbsp; arguments in my classes&lt; I've never
had to deal with something like that.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>From: Michelle Hadden
&lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;<br>
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]<br>
To: [log in to unmask]<br>
Subject: Re: OT:&nbsp; responding to prejudice<br>
Date: Sun, 12 May 2002 09:12:39 -0700 (PDT)</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><br>
i apologize for having to use somebody's reply to a reply to respond
to this, but the initial post escaped me. i also apologize for a 100%
OT diatribe, but this pissed me off proper.<br>
<br>
&lt;snipped part about &quot;efficacy of ignoring offfensive
views&quot;&gt;<br>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>It's of interest, (at least to me) that
50 percent of Americans get<br>
at least part of their news from talk radio-- and 95 percent of talk
radio hosts ascribe to views that&nbsp; are categorized as
conservative to extremely conservative.Rush Limbaugh, Ollie North,
Bill (payola) O'Reilly are taking over the American conversation....
Thus, unfortunately, the views &quot;so rudely forced&quot; onto this
list are what a large population hears every day..... thus,
even--especially?--when they intrude in this venue,&nbsp; it seems
important to challenge these unfortunate ideas.</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><br>
in theory, the theory works out well enough, but practice is less than
perfect. i believe whomever authored this post endeavored to call
&quot;views that are categorized as extremely conservative&quot; as
&quot;offensive.&quot; if this is not the case, please correct me, but
it seems to me that &quot;these unfortunate views&quot; are directly
linked to those expressed by, eg, talk radio hosts like Limbaugh,
North and more recently, O'Reilly.<br>
<br>
pardon?<br>
<br>
conservative opinions are automatically offensive?<br>
conservative opinions are automatically prejudiced?<br>
who died and left you big brother in charge?<br>
<br>
i consider myself something of an inveterate fence-straddler, one of
those exasperating centrists that usually flips a coin before
elections, but it really ever-so pisses the jumping jesus on a pogo
stick out of me when tripe like this gets proclaimed with unabashed
fervor. if 50% of americans (according to whom?) make an active choice
of picking up their news from talk radio, how can they find it to be
&quot;offensive&quot;? wouldn't they be able to escape &quot;these
unfortunate views&quot; with a flick of a button? wouldn't they have
hundreds of other different media outlets to lend their ears/eyes
to?</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><br>
&quot;95% of radio hosts ascribe to views that are categorized as
conservative to extremely conservative&quot;--is this a real stat or
an apocryphal hyperbole? if the former, could you reference it,
please? could you specify who exactly categorizes these radio hosts as
conservative to extremely conservative, and according to what
yardstick? if the latter, here's a similar hyperbole: &quot;flaming
liberals enjoy clubbing people over the head with bogus percentages
pulled out of their collective pinko ass.&quot;</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><br>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>&gt; I've never had a student like Kate
in my classes. I've taught in public and private universities and
underprivileged secondary schools) I take pride in allowing my
students to voice their opinions openly, to disagree with me . I don't
try to change their minds-- I try to teach them to argue.</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><br>
pardon me while i evacuate myself to retch in a corner.<br>
<br>
after succinctly relegating any and all sort of supposedly
conservative talk radio to the realm of &quot;unfortunate views&quot;
you have the gall to tag on a pathetic disclaimer of this sort? how
does your encouragement to voice one's opinions pan out? do you by any
chance accuse 50% of your classroom of perorating &quot;offensive
views&quot;? or maybe you affect a superior smile (the perennial
favorite here at berkeley) and subtly imply that the &quot;unfortunate
views&quot; are the result of youthful ignorance?<br>
<br>
on that note, how can any opinion be offensive is it because it
differs in stance from your own? if that is the case, maybe your own
opinions are equally offensive to me and maybe 50% of americans who
leave their dial alone when one of these dreaded &quot;conservative to
extremely conservative&quot; talk show hosts comes on.<br>
<br>
it irritates me to no end that a discussion prompted by the
assassination of a dutch right-winger somehow spiraled into what seems
to be a free-for-all mauling of conservative thinking. talk about
prejudice. for what it's worth, i'm equally repelled by excesses to
either side of the political spectrum, but this instance seems
particularly repugnant because there seems to be an underlying trend
of justification for this murder as the stifle of &quot;offensive
views&quot;--a parallel to the insane fervor europe's entire media to
deny the dubious character of lepen a chance to articulate
anything.<br>
<br>
and if that's offensive, your being offended is offensive to me.<br>
<br>
<br>
/end_harm<br>
<br>
_________________________________________________________________<br>
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx</blockquote>
<div><br></div>
</body>
</html>
--============_-1190893463==_ma============--

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