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TSE  May 2002

TSE May 2002

Subject:

OT: (mostly) RE: Royal Rose

From:

Meyer Robert K GS-9 99 CES/CECT <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 23 May 2002 11:57:49 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (62 lines)

Rick, there was a "Tutor rose" kind of pinkish to symbolize the marriage
between Richmond (the future Henry VII, sort of a Lancaster stand-in) and
Elizabeth (from York).  Richmond was not a real Lancaster (I think they were
all dead) but he was descended from an illegitimate child of Lancasterian
widower John of Gaunt and his lover (can't remember her name) who he didn't
marry because she was a commoner.  At the end of of Shakespeare's "Richard
III" (the last of an 8 play cycle about the War of the Roses, kind of a
pre-TV mini-series!) Richmond (Henry7) gives a speech summing up it all:


"...And then, as we have ta'en the sacrament,
We will unite the white rose and the red:
Smile heaven upon this fair conjunction,
That long have frown'd upon their enmity!

....All this divided York and Lancaster,
Divided in their dire division,
O, now, let Richmond and Elizabeth,
The true succeeders of each royal house,
By God's fair ordinance conjoin together!

....Now civil wounds are stopp'd, peace lives again:
That she may long live here, God say amen!"

 
A few years ago, someone on the list said that TSE was a member of the
Richard III Society.  They have a web site: www.richardiii.net where they
say Shakespeare was only hyping a Tutor-friendly twist on history.  Funny
thing about it is, being severely handicapped myself, I kind of like Richard
III (in Shakespeare's portrayal of him) even though I'm generally rooting
for Lancaster.  Can understand his jealousy of his brother Edward IV at
being both king and a great lover (see that "winter of our discontent"
speech).


I don't know if there's any connection to 4Q though, it seems like 4Q's
earliest bit of English history is the Puritan-Cavalier Civil War of about
200 years later.  But I could have missed something.


Robert


-----Original Message-----
From: Rickard A. Parker [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 6:11 PM
To: tse listproc
Subject: Royal Rose


Could someone please discuss the Royal Rose some more.

I'm familar with the red and white roses of the War of the Roses (but
I constantly forget which was for the House of York and which for the
House of Lancaster).  As far as I know though the rose as the
symbol of royality died out with the dynasty.  I can't recall seeing
the rose used with the House of Windsor.

Did Eliot only intend to include the ancient royalty?

Regards,
    Rick Parker

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