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TSE  May 2002

TSE May 2002

Subject:

RE: prejudice

From:

"Arwin van Arum" <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 10 May 2002 10:23:27 +0200

Content-Type:

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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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  Dear List

  Let me see now

  In Europe a left wing loony kills a right wing politician and the right
wing politician is described as "a far right wing radical".  The left wing
homicidal nut's  politics are handled very gently and in terms of his
specific concerns.

That depends on your point of view. First of all, please do not make the
mistake of viewing Europe as a state similar to the US. Second of all, in
the liberal Netherlands, for many, this guy was a right wing radical. This
"left wing homocidal nut's politics" was a very intelligent man who's life's
work consist of over 2000 court-cases against farmers and bio-industrialists
who's licences were not in order. In the Netherlands, we or at least some of
us tend to think that when somebody turns to murder, this is a tragedy for
both the killer and the killed.

  An American environmental toad puts pipe bombs in mail boxes to gather
attention for his Cause,  leaves blantantly polical letters and yet
evidently has no politics to listen to the news reports.

Your killer looks like a 21 year old brat, hard to tell what his underlying
psyche was.

  American political institutions, laws and politicians have been
categorized in the most scatological fashion by European list members.  Yet
eighteen percent of the American electorate have not clearly voted for the
ouster of Arabs from America.

First of all, this is possible in a country which has a multi-party system
in which more nuanced voices can be heard and have political influence than
in the US. The next time Bush is (re)elected, this may very well be largely
due to support for his "evil state" rethoric. Second, nobody voted to ouster
Arabs from the Netherlands. Even Pim Fortuyn did not - he proposed a zero
immigration policy at least until the bodies which are supposed to take care
of these immigrants have been properly reformed so that they can handle them
with sufficient dignity.We do need to be careful here, even I agree with
that, because after all we are one of the most densely populated nations in
the world. Third, PF even proposed that all illegal immigrants currently
residing in the Netherlands should be legalised en masse. .

It is a very big mistake to confuse national politics in Europe with
European politics. Le Pen is not a Pim Fortuyn - even I, fairly leftist as I
am, could see that. But France also has much more complex bonds with Arab
countries, counting some of them (like Algeria) to their former colonies.
Several attacks like on Washington have been attempted in France by
political groups from arab origin, like the GHIA. It is understandable that
some hate stems from this, however wrong it may be, but let's not forget the
82% that did not vote for Le Pen.

   No American state has recently engaged in "Ethnic Cleansing" as Bosnia
did.

But then, even though you appear to desire to view the EU as a nation which
it is not, you also wish to view what happened there as an act done by a
member of the EU, which it was not. The Netherlands had a batallion standing
by, uncapable of doing anything, and not even trying. That they did and
could not even try caused the Dutch government to make a public statement
and resign collectively a month ago. However insignificant that was, I think
that is more than any country ever did over something as seemingly trivial
as not being able to help people in a country you do not have political
bonds with.

   No major American politican would even think of advocating the ouster of
Arabs from America as the French and Dutch politicians did.  No American
synagogues have been burned and there has been a very very small amount of
anti-Arab violence considering the potential and our deserved reputation as
a violent, armed people.

True enough, but there are other communities in the US that suffer and/or
have suffered.

  A Jewish list member and scholar, who had taken exception to the
prevailing European pro Palestinian feeling, recently died.  Immediately her
memory was maligned and abused because of her prior pro Israeli posts.  If
grief was not possible silence was.

Well, here I agree. This was very sad, you will surely remember my position
on this outage of political anger on that occasion. That said, there were
mitigating circumstances, as the whole peace process in the Middle East
crumbled at that very moment.

  Vile, violent and abusive language has been written, defended and
encouraged on a list supposedly devoted to reasoned and intellectual
consideration of art.  This by persons who piously assign prejudice to
others without introspection.

I do not think that all members on this list subscribed for "reasoned and
intellectual consideration of art". There are many on this list who view art
as something to experience, to feel, rather than to dissect. You know I am
not one of them, but still I welcome them to this list. And if they at times
to not have the words or the desire to express themselves "intellectually",
I will not be the one to stop them or close them off from discussion. I live
and work with all sorts of people, and even though not all of them have the
same backgrounds and views, they are all still people. And as long as they
do not kill people, I am ready to tolerate and talk to them. Even if they
do, I feel I'd rather cure than punish them. Call me a sentimental old fool
(if you like, I'm 27), but I believe that there are many cases where
punishment is out of place.

Yours,
Arwin van Arum
Almere, The Netherlands

  Rick Seddon
  McIntosh, NM, USA


------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C1F80C.B9558490
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.3315.2870" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
  <DIV align=3Dleft class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
  size=3D2><BR></DIV></FONT>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Dear List</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Let me see now</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial>In Europe&nbsp;a left wing =
loony kills a=20
  right wing politician and the right wing politician is described as "a =
far=20
  right wing radical".&nbsp; The left wing homicidal nut's =
&nbsp;politics are=20
  handled very gently and in terms of his specific concerns.<FONT=20
  color=3D#0000ff><SPAN=20
  class=3D719294307-10052002>&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#0000ff><SPAN=20
  =
class=3D719294307-10052002></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BLOC=
KQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#0000ff><SPAN=20
class=3D719294307-10052002>That depends on your&nbsp;point of =
view.&nbsp;First of=20
all, please do not make the mistake of viewing Europe as a state similar =
to the=20
US. Second of all, in the liberal&nbsp;Netherlands, for many, this guy =
was a=20
right wing radical. This "left wing homocidal nut's politics"&nbsp;was a =
very=20
intelligent man who's life's work consist of over 2000 court-cases =
against=20
farmers and bio-industrialists&nbsp;who's licences were not in order. In =
the=20
Netherlands, we or at least some of us tend to think that when somebody =
turns to=20
murder, this is a tragedy for both the killer and the=20
killed.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>An&nbsp;American =
environmental&nbsp;toad puts=20
  pipe bombs in mail boxes to gather attention for his Cause, =
&nbsp;leaves=20
  blantantly polical letters and yet evidently has no politics to listen =
to the=20
  news reports.</FONT>&nbsp;&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D719294307-10052002>Your=20
killer looks like a 21 year old brat, hard to tell what his underlying =
psyche=20
was.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial>American =
political&nbsp;institutions,=20
  laws&nbsp;and politicians have been categorized in the most =
scatological=20
  fashion by European list members.&nbsp; Yet eighteen percent of the =
American=20
  electorate have not clearly voted for the ouster of Arabs from=20
  America.&nbsp;&nbsp;<SPAN class=3D719294307-10052002><FONT=20
  color=3D#0000ff>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN=20
  =
class=3D719294307-10052002></SPAN></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>=

<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial><SPAN=20
class=3D719294307-10052002>First of all, this is possible in a country =
which has a=20
multi-party system in which more nuanced voices can be heard and have =
political=20
influence than in the US. The next time Bush is (re)elected, this may =
very well=20
be largely due to support for his "evil state"&nbsp;rethoric. Second, =
nobody=20
voted to ouster Arabs from the Netherlands. Even Pim Fortuyn did not - =
he=20
proposed a zero immigration policy at least until the bodies which are =
supposed=20
to take care of these immigrants have been properly reformed so that =
they can=20
handle them with sufficient dignity.We&nbsp;do need to be careful here, =
even I=20
agree with that, because after all we are one of the most densely =
populated=20
nations in the&nbsp;world. Third, PF even proposed that all illegal =
immigrants=20
currently residing in the Netherlands should be legalised en masse.=20
..</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial><SPAN=20
class=3D719294307-10052002></SPAN></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial><SPAN=20
class=3D719294307-10052002>It is a very big mistake to&nbsp;confuse =
national=20
politics in Europe with&nbsp;European politics. Le Pen is not a Pim =
Fortuyn -=20
even I,&nbsp;fairly leftist as I am, could see that. But France also has =
much=20
more complex bonds with Arab countries, counting some of them (like =
Algeria) to=20
their former colonies. Several attacks like on Washington have been =
attempted in=20
France by political groups from arab origin, like the GHIA. It is =
understandable=20
that some hate stems from this, however wrong it may be, but let's not =
forget=20
the 82% that did not vote for Le Pen.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN=20
  class=3D719294307-10052002></SPAN></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN=20
  class=3D719294307-10052002>&nbsp;</SPAN>No American state has=20
  recently&nbsp;engaged&nbsp;in "Ethnic Cleansing" as Bosnia=20
  did.&nbsp;&nbsp;<SPAN class=3D719294307-10052002><FONT=20
  color=3D#0000ff>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D719294307-10052002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D719294307-10052002>But=20
then, even though you appear to desire to&nbsp;view the EU as a nation =
which it=20
is not, you also wish to view what happened there as an act done by a =
member of=20
the EU, which it was not. The Netherlands had a batallion standing by, =
uncapable=20
of doing anything, and not even trying. That they did and could not even =
try=20
caused the Dutch government to make a public statement and resign =
collectively a=20
month ago. However insignificant that was, I think that is more than any =
country=20
ever did over something as seemingly trivial as not being able to help =
people in=20
a country you do not have political bonds with.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D719294307-10052002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN=20
  class=3D719294307-10052002>&nbsp;</SPAN>No major American politican =
would even=20
  think of advocating the ouster of Arabs from America as the French and =
Dutch=20
  politicians did.&nbsp; No American synagogues have been burned and =
there has=20
  been a very very small amount of anti-Arab violence considering the =
potential=20
  and our deserved reputation as a violent, armed people.<FONT=20
  color=3D#0000ff><SPAN=20
  class=3D719294307-10052002>&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#0000ff><SPAN=20
  =
class=3D719294307-10052002></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BLOC=
KQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#0000ff><SPAN=20
class=3D719294307-10052002>True enough, but there are other communities =
in the US=20
that&nbsp;suffer and/or have=20
suffered.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial>A Jewish list member and =
scholar, who had=20
  taken exception to the prevailing European pro Palestinian feeling, =
recently=20
  died.&nbsp; Immediately her memory was maligned and =
abused&nbsp;because of=20
  her&nbsp;prior pro Israeli posts.&nbsp; If grief was not possible =
silence=20
  was.<FONT color=3D#0000ff><SPAN=20
  class=3D719294307-10052002>&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#0000ff><SPAN=20
  =
class=3D719294307-10052002></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BLOC=
KQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#0000ff><SPAN=20
class=3D719294307-10052002>Well, here I agree. This was very sad, you =
will surely=20
remember my position on this outage of political anger on that occasion. =
That=20
said, there were mitigating&nbsp;circumstances, as the whole peace=20
process&nbsp;in the Middle East crumbled at that very=20
moment.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial>Vile, violent and&nbsp;abusive=20
  language&nbsp;has been&nbsp;written, defended and encouraged on a list =

  supposedly devoted to reasoned and intellectual&nbsp; consideration of =

  art.&nbsp; This&nbsp;by persons who piously assign prejudice to others =
without=20
  introspection.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT color=3D#0000ff><SPAN=20
  class=3D719294307-10052002>&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#0000ff><SPAN=20
  =
class=3D719294307-10052002></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BLOC=
KQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#0000ff><SPAN=20
class=3D719294307-10052002>I do not think that all members on this list =
subscribed=20
for "reasoned and intellectual&nbsp;consideration of art". There are =
many on=20
this list who view art as something to experience, to feel, rather than =
to=20
dissect. You know I am not one of them, but still I welcome them to this =
list.=20
And if they at times to not have the words or the desire to express =
themselves=20
"intellectually", I will not be the one to stop them or close them off =
from=20
discussion. I live and work with all sorts of people, and even though =
not all of=20
them have the same&nbsp;backgrounds and views, they are all still =
people. And as=20
long as they do not kill people, I am ready to tolerate and talk to =
them. Even=20
if they do, I feel I'd rather cure than punish them. Call me a =
sentimental old=20
fool (if you like, I'm 27), but I believe that there are many cases =
where=20
punishment is out of place. </SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#0000ff><SPAN=20
class=3D719294307-10052002></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#0000ff><SPAN=20
class=3D719294307-10052002>Yours,</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#0000ff><SPAN=20
class=3D719294307-10052002>Arwin van =
Arum</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#0000ff><SPAN=20
class=3D719294307-10052002>Almere, The=20
Netherlands</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Rick Seddon</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>McIntosh, NM, USA</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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