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TSE  January 2002

TSE January 2002

Subject:

Fw: deception of the thrush

From:

"Frances Rushworth" <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 29 Jan 2002 13:34:26 -0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (456 lines)

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C1A8C9.ABC630F0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Sorry if this is coming through twice, it didn't get sent to my inbox.
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Frances Rushworth=20
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 10:57 PM
Subject: Re: deception of the thrush


Dear Joao,

Thank you very much for your careful interpretation of the 'deception of =
the thrush'. Although my 'first ripple' to the stone tossed in by =
sugeknight was far less well considered, this first section of Burnt =
Norton has been rolling round my head for twenty years and I never have =
got a grip on it.

What do I think? Hmm, provoked to think properly, I see what you mean, =
the idea that the life of the mind, or perhaps the mind in approaching =
the soul or attempting to encompass the 'cosmic beginning', is more real =
than day to day life, and that it is the former that humankind cannot =
bear too much of. It reverses my previous interpretation, that head =
games are an escape from the real world 'gloomy hills of London.' So =
being brave would entail pursuing lines of thought through the doors and =
into the rose garden, not facing life 'as it is', without our usual =
props.=20

Bear with me while I think on. So, the rose garden as a complex twofold =
symbol, in Burnt Norton, to which I also apply the element air, vibrant =
or faded. Then there is East Coker, earth, the little people, the wood, =
the dark, the body, and no roses. After that, The Dry Salvages, =
obviously water, sullen river, restless sea, and only a 'Royal Rose or =
lavender spray'. Finally, Little Gidding and fire. Fire Pentecostal - =
perhaps a knowledge of one part of your symbol, the atemporal Love of =
God. Fire of love, the intolerable shirt of flame - perhaps intrinsic =
to the other part of the symbol, human existence. The choice of pyre or =
pyre - to be redeemed from fire by fire. Now do that Eliot thing, and =
look at the beginning - the rose garden - and the end - it sounds like =
the rose garden again, but 'to know the place for the first time'. The =
last line of all: 'And the fire and the rose are one'. Woof, the =
symbols grow too unwieldy - or perhaps I can't bear any more reality. I =
would have to be an alchemist to make myself a Philosopher's Stone out =
of that lot.

I was very interested by the partial letter you sent to JP Earls - I =
think I have missed some posts along the way, for I don't have the =
thread. At the risk of turning old ground, I too find language a =
problem - first, it is a constraint. If one's own language has not =
words for something, it is difficult to feel it at all, let alone =
express it. Clearly you are a far better linguist than I am, but I =
think I can feel things in German that are inaccessible/unacceptable in =
English. Do you find the same, in other languages, or is it a culture, =
hey, why not Weltanschauung, that makes the difference, rather than =
words?

Second, as you say, when you have the words, they are incapable of =
endurance. Finding the pattern, or at least a 'form' outside the =
platonic cave, giving it 'words that will not stay still', might that be =
'the fight to recover what has been lost And found and lost again and =
again'? Finding a way of communicating our own incommunicable symbols, =
at least now?=20

Before I digress further, into Celtic symbols, still without resolution, =
I will say thanks and hope you continue the letter to JP.

Cheers,
Fran.=20

----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Jo=E3o Verg=EDlio Gallerani Cuter=20
  To: [log in to unmask]
  Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 6:49 AM
  Subject: Re: deception of the thrush


  Dear Frances,
  =20
  =20
  The meaning of the "deception of the thrush" is certainly bound to the =
meaning we give to "our first world":
    Through the first gate
    Into our first world, shall we follow=20
    The deception of the thrush?
  In the poem, this "first world" is linked to the "rose-garden", which =
is given by memory:
    Footfalls echo in the memory
    Down the passage which we did not take
    Towards the door we never opened
    Into the rose-garden
  Everything in this garden is elusive, marked by instability. The =
inhabitants are [like distant] "echoes" (v.19); they move "without =
pressure, over the dead leaves" (v.26). There is "music hidden in the =
shrubbery", but its "unheard" (v.29). The visual experience is that of =
an "eyebeam" crossing "unseen". The evidence of it? Well, "the roses had =
the look of flowers that are looked at"... In the pool, for a brief =
moment, the narrator could see the faces of the "inhabitants" reflected =
on the water, but
    Then a cloud passed, and the pool was empty.
  Then a bird (the thrush? I guess another one. the thrush sings a =
two-note motive: "find them, find them". this bird sings a repeated =
single note: "go, go, go". but don't trust me. we don't have thrushes =
down here. I've never heard one.) comes to expel the visitor, since =20
    human kind
    Cannot bear very much reality
  So the elusive experience in the garden is (oddly enough) not only =
real, but supremely real: it is "too much" real for human beings. We are =
not presented here to an ordinary kind of mnemonic experience. What is =
involved is not an ordinary scene of life. But what is it?=20
  In my opinion the rose garden is a twofold symbol. A personal and a =
cosmic symbol at the same time.
  First of all, it is the symbol of the World as we see it for the first =
time. Not a part of the world - say, a face, a landscape, a sound - but =
the World as such. Life. Human existence. Being in front of something. =
Being inside the river of time. We are always inside it, but distracted =
of it. Our time is the time of the clocks, "spatialized", with landmarks =
put before and after: what I did yesterday, what I'll do tomorrow. Time =
future of our expectations, time past of our remembrances, and the =
merely possible time of our imagination (what could have been, but was =
not). But all these "times" are given in the "specious present" =
presenting itself in the flow of life. This is the time we "find" when =
we come into existence [in a certain sense, at every single moment]. The =
time of an infant. The time of our "first world".
  I think the rose-garden is also the symbol of a "cosmic beginning", =
where everything that exist "was" ["Is"] potentially contained in the =
atemporal Love of God. But to support this reading, I would have to use =
different passages of the poem, and my letter is growing too long.=20
  What do you think?
  =20
  Cheers
  =20
  Jo=E3o
  =20
  P.S.: Does any of you know of some text about the relation between the =
Quartets and Augustine? Thanks.
    ----- Original Message -----=20
    From: Frances Rushworth=20
    To: [log in to unmask]
    Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 8:22 PM
    Subject: deception of the thrush


    sugeknight wrote 'But heres my theory: The DOTT [deception of the =
thrush] is the belief that a person can find happiness in this life.'
    =20
    I read it only slightly differently, but a spot more =
?optimistically, that the pursuit of happiness is futile, whether =
through memory or as a future goal. Kant was not the first to observe =
'that the more a cultivated reason concerns itself with the aim of =
enjoying life and happiness, the farther does man get away from true =
contentment.' I think contentment is something one can strive for, and =
happiness can happen when you aren't looking. If you really want to =
suffer, let love seize you.

    cheers,
    Fran

------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C1A8C9.ABC630F0
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charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

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<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Sorry if this is coming through twice, =
it didn't=20
get sent to my inbox.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----=20
<DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A=20
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"=20
[log in to unmask]>Frances Rushworth</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"=20
[log in to unmask]>[log in to unmask]</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Monday, January 28, 2002 10:57 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: deception of the thrush</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Dear Joao,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thank you very much for your careful =
interpretation=20
of the 'deception of the thrush'.&nbsp; Although my 'first ripple' to =
the stone=20
tossed in by sugeknight was far less well considered, this first section =

of&nbsp;Burnt Norton has been rolling round my head for twenty years and =
I never=20
have got a&nbsp;grip on it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>What do I think?&nbsp; Hmm, provoked to think properly, I see what =
you=20
mean, the idea that the life&nbsp;of the mind, or perhaps the mind in=20
approaching the soul or attempting to encompass the 'cosmic beginning', =
is=20
<U>more</U> real than day to day life, and that it is the former that =
humankind=20
cannot bear too much of.&nbsp; It reverses my previous interpretation, =
that head=20
games are an escape from the real world 'gloomy hills of London.'&nbsp; =
So being=20
brave would entail pursuing lines of thought through the doors and into =
the rose=20
garden,&nbsp;not facing life 'as it is', without our usual props. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Bear with me while I think on.&nbsp; So,&nbsp;the rose garden as a =
complex=20
twofold symbol, in Burnt Norton, to which I also apply the element air, =
vibrant=20
or faded.&nbsp; Then there is East Coker, earth, the little people, the =
wood,=20
the dark, the body, and no roses.&nbsp; After that, The Dry Salvages, =
obviously=20
water, sullen river, restless sea, and only a 'Royal Rose or lavender=20
spray'.&nbsp; Finally, Little Gidding and fire.&nbsp; Fire Pentecostal - =
perhaps=20
a&nbsp;knowledge of one part of your symbol, the atemporal Love of =
God.&nbsp;=20
Fire of&nbsp;love, the intolerable shirt of flame - perhaps intrinsic to =
the=20
other part of the symbol, human existence.&nbsp; The choice of pyre or =
pyre - to=20
be redeemed from fire by fire. Now do that Eliot thing, and look at the=20
beginning&nbsp;- the rose garden - and the end - it sounds like the rose =
garden=20
again, but 'to know the place for the first time'.&nbsp; The last line =
of all:=20
'And the fire and the rose are one'.&nbsp; Woof, the symbols grow too =
unwieldy -=20
or perhaps I can't bear any more reality.&nbsp;I would have to be an =
alchemist=20
to make myself a Philosopher's Stone out of that lot.</DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>I was very interested by the partial letter you sent to =
JP=20
Earls - I think I have missed some posts along the way, for I don't have =
the=20
thread.&nbsp; At the risk of turning old ground, I too find language a =
problem -=20
first, it is a constraint.&nbsp; If one's&nbsp;own language has not =
words for=20
something, it is difficult to feel it at all, let alone express =
it.&nbsp;=20
Clearly you are a far better linguist than I am, but I&nbsp;think I can =
feel=20
things in German that&nbsp;are inaccessible/unacceptable in =
English.&nbsp; Do=20
you find the same, in other languages, or is it a culture, hey, why not=20
Weltanschauung, that makes the difference,&nbsp;rather than words?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Second, as you say, when you have the words, they are incapable of=20
endurance.&nbsp; Finding the pattern, or at least a 'form' outside the =
platonic=20
cave, giving it 'words that will not stay still', might that be 'the =
fight to=20
recover what has been lost And found and lost again&nbsp;and =
again'?&nbsp;=20
Finding a way of communicating our own incommunicable symbols, at=20
least&nbsp;now?&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Before I digress further, into Celtic symbols, still without =
resolution, I=20
will say thanks and hope you continue the letter to JP.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Cheers,</DIV>
<DIV>Fran.&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV></FONT>----- Original Message ----- </DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"=20
  [log in to unmask]>Jo=E3o Verg=EDlio Gallerani =
Cuter</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"=20
  [log in to unmask]>[log in to unmask]</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, January 23, =
2002 6:49=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: deception of the=20
thrush</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Dear Frances,</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The meaning of the "deception of the =
thrush" is=20
  certainly bound to the meaning we give to "our first =
world":</FONT></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Through the first gate</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Into our first world, shall we =
follow=20
    </FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The deception of the=20
  thrush?</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>In the poem, this "first =
world" is linked=20
  to the "rose-garden", which is given by memory:</FONT></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Footfalls echo in the=20
    memory</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Down the passage which we =
did not=20
    take</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Towards the door we never =

    opened</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Into the=20
  rose-garden</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Everything in this garden=20
  is&nbsp;elusive, marked by instability. The inhabitants are [like =
distant]=20
  "echoes" (v.19); they move "without pressure, over the dead leaves" =
(v.26).=20
  There is "music hidden in the shrubbery", but its "unheard" (v.29). =
The visual=20
  experience is that of an "eyebeam" crossing "unseen". The evidence of =
it?=20
  Well, "the roses had the look of flowers that are looked at"... In the =
pool,=20
  for a brief moment, the narrator could see the faces of the =
"inhabitants"=20
  reflected&nbsp;on the water, but</FONT></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Then a cloud passed, and =
the pool was=20
    empty.</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Then a bird (the thrush? =
I&nbsp;guess=20
  another one. the thrush sings a two-note motive: "find them, find =
them". this=20
  bird sings a repeated single note: "go, go, go". but don't trust me. =
we don't=20
  have thrushes down here. I've never heard one.) comes to expel the =
visitor,=20
  since&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>human kind</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Cannot bear very much=20
    reality</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>So the elusive experience =
in the garden=20
  is (oddly enough) not only real, but supremely real: it is "too much" =
real for=20
  human beings. We are not presented here to an ordinary kind of =
mnemonic=20
  experience. What is involved is not an ordinary scene of life. But =
what is it?=20
  </FONT></DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>In my opinion the rose =
garden is a=20
  twofold symbol. A personal and a cosmic symbol at the same =
time.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>First of all, it is the =
symbol&nbsp;of=20
  the World as we see it for the first time. Not a part of the world - =
say, a=20
  face, a landscape, a sound - but the World as such. Life. Human =
existence.=20
  Being in front of something. Being inside the river of time. We are =
always=20
  inside it, but distracted&nbsp;of it. Our time is the time of the =
clocks,=20
  "spatialized", with landmarks put before and after: what I did =
yesterday, what=20
  I'll do tomorrow. Time future of our expectations, time past of our=20
  remembrances, and the merely possible time of our imagination (what =
could have=20
  been, but was not). But all these "times" are given in the "specious =
present"=20
  presenting itself in the flow of life. This is the time we "find" when =
we come=20
  into existence [in a certain sense, at every single moment]. The time =
of an=20
  infant. The time of our "first world".</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I think the rose-garden is =
also the=20
  symbol of a "cosmic beginning", where everything that exist "was" =
["Is"]=20
  potentially contained in the atemporal Love of God. But to support =
this=20
  reading, I would have to use different passages of the poem, and my =
letter is=20
  growing too long. </FONT></DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>What do you =
think?</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Cheers</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Jo=E3o</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>P.S.: Does any of you know =
of some text=20
  about the relation between the Quartets and Augustine? =
Thanks.</FONT></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
  style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
    <DIV=20
    style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
    <A href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"=20
    [log in to unmask]>Frances Rushworth</A> </DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
    href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"=20
    [log in to unmask]>[log in to unmask]</A> </DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, January 22, =
2002 8:22=20
    PM</DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> deception of the =
thrush</DIV>
    <DIV><BR></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>sugeknight wrote 'But heres my =
theory: The DOTT=20
    [deception of the thrush] is the belief that a person can find =
happiness in=20
    this life.'</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I&nbsp;read it only slightly =
differently, but a=20
    spot more ?optimistically, that the pursuit of happiness is futile, =
whether=20
    through memory or as a future goal.&nbsp; Kant was not the first to=20
    observe&nbsp;'that the more a cultivated reason concerns itself with =
the aim=20
    of enjoying life and happiness, the farther does man get away from =
true=20
    contentment.'&nbsp; I think contentment <U>is</U> something one can =
strive=20
    for, and&nbsp;happiness can happen when you aren't=20
    looking.</FONT>&nbsp;<FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> If you really want =
to suffer,=20
    let love seize you.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>cheers,</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>Fran</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C1A8C9.ABC630F0--

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