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TSE  September 2001

TSE September 2001

Subject:

Re:OT--horror and phones

From:

"Frances Rushworth" <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 21 Sep 2001 22:47:45 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

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Parts/Attachments

text/plain (226 lines)

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Before I make this response, I will first admit my ignorance of the many =
authorities cited by Jonathon Crowther in his search for the symbolic =
meaning of the acts of 9/11.  I do not share his alarm at the idea 'that =
we are all accidents of one intellect and universal will', as to me it =
seems to be a basic tenet of all the religions I have ever heard of, and =
certainly applies to both the Christian and Muslim faiths, with all =
their offshoots.  I suppose it is most simply expressed as 'In the =
beginning God created...'.  The concept that we are all integral parts =
of an unfathomably greater whole, is the essence of faith.  Faith is =
uncertainty, beliefs are an entirely different matter.  To fathom the =
'symbol', we would have to understand the beliefs of those who made it.

He goes on to talk of the terrorism of the IRA, and to say that since =
the British (which includes me) have not 'leaned on them to decommission =
and end their atrocities', we 'harbour terrorists and so should receive =
the same treatment as any other country under the US's rules.'.  Does he =
truly imagine that the British government and people cheerfully accept =
the terrorism of the IRA, and that enormous amounts of political effort =
and military and civilian lives have not been expended in the quest for =
peace?  In the past year or so, we have come nearer to a resolution of =
the conflict than we have ever been before, but this is after decades of =
horror.  If I could imagine that the US would be more sucessful against =
the terrorists who have been active in its own cities, I would feel far =
less doom-ridden than I do.  Terrorism is not a country, not Northern =
Ireland and not Afghanistan, and a 'war' cannot be waged against it.  It =
is a clash of beliefs, resulting in desperate action, understanding this =
clash is a prerequisite of resolution.
=20
He asks, why can't history leave us alone?  I, too, fear the loss of the =
known, but 'History is now and England.', or Montana or Pakistan.  We =
are all history, and no adult is an innocent victim.  One might wish to =
grade the degree of guilt we bear, from the Americans who bankrolled the =
IRA, to the men who planted the bombs in London, from the people who own =
the sweat shops in the Far East, to the woman who buys cheap clothing =
for her children.  We are all responsible for the world we live in, by =
what we do and what we don't do, and what we choose never to consider.   =
'Go,go, go, said the bird: human kind Cannot bear very much reality.  =
Time past and time future What might have been and what has been  Point =
to one end, which is always present.'  I don't like it at all, but I am =
with Ken Armstrong when he writes that 'the tragic is ... bred in the =
bone.'  I share Tom K's distress when he feels compelled to conclude =
that the events of  9/11 comprise tragedy for the terrorists, but don't =
you see, it is a tragedy for those who died, representing, as they did, =
all the Western World, our ethos which also has flaws.

I am so happy!  My mum just phoned to tell me that my youngest brother, =
who was climbing in Northern Pakistan, has crossed the border into =
India.  I talk a good game, concern for the big picture, but really, my =
fear for all those who live in the Himalayas is as nothing, compared to =
the relief I feel that the boy is out of there.  I returned to The Four =
Quartets, knowing they were published before the end of the Second World =
War, hoping for a light on the times.  Initially, I felt disappointed, =
almost revolted, that TSE could have focussed so on the personal =
experience, when he wrote at a such a time and place.  Now I feel that =
the personal is the only place we can make a sure start.  I originally =
intended to write asking if anyone knew what TSE saw as the purpose of =
poetry in general and his own in particular.  Was it simply =
self-expression?  I would still like to know - I have only read the =
poetry, not the autobiographies or critiques.  I only subscribed to this =
site a few days ago and I have been fascinated by the email, and =
distracted from my worry, so thanks.  Thanks particularly to Rickard, =
for the Auden poem that restored my faith in the relevance of poetry.

To get heavy again, if poetry can help our understanding, it then =
becomes incumbent upon us to think, opine, and respond - to act, but not =
to react.

Cheers,
Fran.

P.S. What does 'Dude, that's whack' mean?


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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Before I make this response, I will =
first admit my=20
ignorance of the many authorities cited by Jonathon Crowther in his =
search for=20
the symbolic meaning of the acts of 9/11.&nbsp; I do not&nbsp;share his =
alarm at=20
the idea 'that we are all accidents of one intellect and universal =
will', as to=20
me it seems to be a basic tenet of all the religions I have ever heard =
of, and=20
certainly applies to both the Christian and Muslim faiths, with all =
their=20
offshoots.&nbsp; I suppose it is most simply expressed as 'In the =
beginning God=20
created...'.&nbsp; The concept that we are all integral parts of an =
unfathomably=20
greater whole, is the essence of faith.&nbsp; Faith is uncertainty, =
beliefs are=20
an entirely different matter.&nbsp; To fathom the 'symbol', we would =
have to=20
understand the beliefs of those who made it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>He goes on to talk of the terrorism of =
the IRA, and=20
to say that since the British (which includes me) have not 'leaned on =
them to=20
decommission and end their atrocities', we 'harbour terrorists and so =
should=20
receive the same treatment as any other country under the US's =
rules.'.&nbsp;=20
Does he truly imagine that the British government and people cheerfully =
accept=20
the terrorism of the IRA, and that enormous amounts of political effort =
and=20
military and civilian lives have not been expended in the quest for=20
peace?&nbsp;&nbsp;In the past year or so, we have come nearer to a =
resolution of=20
the conflict than we have ever been before, but this is after decades of =

horror.&nbsp; If I could imagine that the US would be more sucessful =
against the=20
terrorists who have been active in&nbsp;its own cities, I would feel far =
less=20
doom-ridden than I do.&nbsp; Terrorism is not a country, not Northern =
Ireland=20
and not Afghanistan, and a 'war' cannot be waged against it.&nbsp; It is =
a clash=20
of beliefs, resulting in desperate action, understanding this clash is a =

prerequisite of resolution.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>He asks, why can't history leave us =
alone?&nbsp; I,=20
too, fear the loss of the known,&nbsp;but 'History is now and England.', =
or=20
Montana or Pakistan.&nbsp; We are all history, and&nbsp;no adult is an =
innocent=20
victim.&nbsp; One might wish to grade the degree of guilt we bear, from =
the=20
Americans who bankrolled the IRA, to the men who planted the bombs in =
London,=20
from </FONT>the <FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>people who own the sweat =
shops in the=20
Far East, to the woman who buys cheap clothing for her children.&nbsp; =
We are=20
all responsible for the world we live in, by what we do and what we =
don't do,=20
and what we choose never to consider.&nbsp; &nbsp;'Go,go, go, said the =
bird:=20
human kind Cannot bear very much reality.&nbsp; Time past&nbsp;and time =
future=20
What might have been and what has been&nbsp; Point to one end, which is =
always=20
present.'&nbsp; I don't like it at all, but I am with Ken Armstrong when =
he=20
writes that 'the tragic is ... bred in the bone.'&nbsp; I share Tom K's =
distress=20
when he feels compelled to conclude that the events of&nbsp; 9/11 =
comprise=20
tragedy for the terrorists, but don't you see, it <U>is</U> a tragedy =
for those=20
who died, representing, as they did, all the Western World, our ethos =
which also=20
has flaws.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I am so happy!&nbsp; My =
mum&nbsp;just&nbsp;phoned=20
to tell me that my youngest brother, who was climbing in Northern =
Pakistan, has=20
crossed the border into India.&nbsp; I talk a good game, concern for the =
big=20
picture, but really, my&nbsp;fear for all those who live in the =
Himalayas is as=20
nothing, compared to the relief I feel that the boy is out of =
there.&nbsp; I=20
returned to The Four Quartets, knowing they were published before the =
end of=20
the&nbsp;Second World War, hoping for a light on the times.&nbsp; =
Initially, I=20
felt disappointed, almost revolted, that TSE could have focussed so on =
the=20
personal experience, when he wrote at a such a time and place.&nbsp; Now =
I feel=20
that the personal is the only place we can make a sure start.&nbsp; I =
originally=20
intended to write asking if anyone knew what TSE saw as the purpose of =
poetry in=20
general and his own in particular.&nbsp; Was it simply=20
self-expression?&nbsp;&nbsp;I would&nbsp;still like to know - I have =
only read=20
the poetry, not the autobiographies or critiques.&nbsp; I only =
subscribed to=20
this site a few days ago and I have been fascinated by the email, and =
distracted=20
from my worry, so thanks.&nbsp; Thanks particularly to Rickard, for the =
Auden=20
poem that restored my faith in the relevance of poetry.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>To get heavy again, if poetry can help =
our=20
understanding, it then becomes incumbent upon us to think, opine, and =
respond -=20
to act, but not to react.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Cheers,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Fran.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>P.S. What does 'Dude, that's whack'=20
mean?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C142EF.6E6ABB30--

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