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TSE  June 2001

TSE June 2001

Subject:

Re: Ionian white--for Pat

From:

"Richard Seddon" <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 14 Jun 2001 09:59:47 -0600

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (330 lines)

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Pat:

There is an Ionian Sea.  Located between Greece and Italy.  Its eastern =
shore is upon the Ionian Islands.  Today not very blue but filled with =
trash like the rest of the Mediterranean Sea.  Not one of the "Seven =
Seas"

Rick Seddon
McIntosh, NM, USA
    -----Original Message-----
    From: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
    To: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
    Date: Thursday, June 14, 2001 9:44 AM
    Subject: Ionian white--for Pat
   =20
   =20
    I don't know if this ever reached the list, so I'm resenidng it. Pat =

   =20
   =20
    In a message dated 6/10/01 9:32:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time, =
[log in to unmask]
    writes:=20
   =20
   =20
   =20
        In the line from TWL that includes "Ionian white and gold," the =
adjective=20
        Ionian is not glossed in OED, 2nd ed., so TSE's usage is not =
clear. (I=20
        don't have Southam in hand; it may be there.) The usual phrase =
is "Ionian=20
        blue," but TSE may have been thinking of the dazzling white of =
the houses=20
        and beaches of the Ionian isles. Does Ionian occur in the =
literature about=20
        Wren's church?=20
       =20
       =20
   =20
   =20
    Jim,=20
   =20
    A common use of the word "Ionian" is in naming the three Greek =
architectural=20
    orders, Doric, Ionic, and Corinthian. What's usually taught to =
beginning art=20
    history students is how to recognize the columns, and I assume TSE =
would have=20
    been taught this in the intro class in ancient art that he took at =
Harvard.=20
    Doric columns are squat and cigar shaped and have a plain capital or =
top (as=20
    on the Parthenon).  Ionic columns are more slender and have a volute =
(scroll)=20
    at the top. The Erechteoin has Ionic columns. Corinthian columns are =
the most=20
    slender of all, and the capital has acanthus flowers. If your wife =
has a copy=20
    of Janson, Gardner, or any other intro art history text, there's =
probably a=20
    picture of the various columns. Or maybe on the Internet (attention, =
Rick!).=20
   =20
    All of the columns, and Greek temples generally, would have been =
made of=20
    Pentelic marble, the white marble that the Greeks quarried on mount=20
    Pentelicon. In photos of the Parthenon, that's the mountain one sees =
in the=20
    distance. So I take "Ionian white" to mean the color of white =
marble, or of=20
    the white marble used by the Greeks for Ionian (and all) columns. =
Greek=20
    temples, incidentally, have no mortar between the stones, which stay =
in place=20
    just of their own weight. Plus I think there might be metal rods or =
(more=20
    likely) pegs inside the columns, which had to be made in sections. =
Marble=20
    weighs about 160 pounds per cubic foot, so it's easier to make tall =
columns=20
    in sections and stack the sections.=20
   =20
    As you've probably noticed, Greek architecture was imitated a lot in =
later=20
    periods, right down to the courthouses in so many American towns =
that are=20
    meant to resemble Greek temples, columns and all. These aren't =
necessarily=20
    white or made of marble.  =20
   =20
    The gold Eliot mentions doesn't strike me as Greek. Remains of paint =
are on=20
    some Greek temples and sculpture, and there's a dispute about how =
they looked=20
    originally. Whether they were entirely painted or just highlighted =
with paint=20
    in some places. But I've never heard gold mentioned as one of the =
paint=20
    colors, and the use of gold paint and gold leaf is actually more =
typical of=20
    the middle ages and later.=20
   =20
    So my question now is whether Wren used white (or white marble) =
Ionic=20
    columns, perhaps touched up with gold, in the church of Magnus =
Martyr.  =20
    Pictures needed, and I'd look first at the interior. The phrase you =
mention,=20
    "Ionian blue," sounds like a reference to the sea, or even the =
Aegean sea if=20
    "Ionian" is being used here as a synonym for "Greek." It's possible =
a person=20
    wouldn't think of Ionic columns unless they knew at least the =
rudiments of=20
    art history. But tse was exposed to at least the rudiments, from =
that Harvard=20
    class in the history of ancient art.  The person teaching it wasn't =
an art=20
    historian, but a teacher of Greek. So it might be fair to assume =
he's put at=20
    least as much stress on Greek art and architecture as on the work of =
the=20
    Sumerians, Egyptians, Romans, or whomever else was included in the =
class.=20
   =20
    If I've disgraced myself by getting any of the above not quite =
right, Gunnar=20
    (who's an architect) will correct me.=20
   =20
    Starting Monday, I'll be away from my computer for a few days, so =
may be slow=20
    in responding if there's a thread on this. You've raised a very =
interesting=20
    question, though, and I feel a little embarrased that I didn't pay =
much=20
    attention to the design of the interior when I visited the church =
many years=20
    ago.=20
   =20
    best,=20
   =20
    pat sloane=20
   =20


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	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Pat:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>There is an Ionian Sea.&nbsp; Located between Greece =
and=20
Italy.&nbsp; Its eastern shore is upon the Ionian Islands.&nbsp; Today =
not very=20
blue but filled with trash like the rest of the Mediterranean Sea.&nbsp; =
Not one=20
of the &quot;Seven Seas&quot;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Rick Seddon</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>McIntosh, NM, USA</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B><A href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A> =
&lt;<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>&gt;<BR><B>To: =
</B><A=20
    href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A> =
&lt;<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>&gt;<BR>=
<B>Date:=20
    </B>Thursday, June 14, 2001 9:44 AM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Ionian =
white--for=20
    Pat<BR><BR></DIV></FONT><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT =
face=3DArial lang=3D0=20
    size=3D3 FAMILY =3D SANSSERIF>I don't know if this ever reached the =
list, so I'm=20
    resenidng it. Pat <BR><BR></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial =
lang=3D0=20
    size=3D2 FAMILY =3D SANSSERIF><BR></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 =
face=3D"Arial Narrow"=20
    lang=3D0 size=3D3 FAMILY =3D SANSSERIF><B>In a message dated 6/10/01 =
9:32:24 AM=20
    Eastern Daylight Time, [log in to unmask] <BR>writes: =
<BR><BR></FONT><FONT=20
    color=3D#000000 face=3DArial lang=3D0 size=3D2 FAMILY =3D =
SANSSERIF></B><BR>
    <BLOCKQUOTE=20
    style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"=20
    TYPE =3D CITE>In the line from TWL that includes &quot;Ionian white =
and=20
        gold,&quot; the adjective <BR>Ionian is not glossed in OED, 2nd =
ed., so=20
        TSE's usage is not clear. (I <BR>don't have Southam in hand; it =
may be=20
        there.) The usual phrase is &quot;Ionian <BR>blue,&quot; but TSE =
may=20
        have been thinking of the dazzling white of the houses <BR>and =
beaches=20
        of the Ionian isles. Does Ionian occur in the literature about=20
        <BR>Wren's church? <BR><BR></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 =
face=3DArial lang=3D0=20
        size=3D3 FAMILY =3D SANSSERIF></BLOCKQUOTE><BR></FONT><FONT =
color=3D#000000=20
    face=3D"Arial Narrow" lang=3D0 size=3D3 FAMILY =3D =
SANSSERIF><B><BR>Jim, <BR><BR>A=20
    common use of the word &quot;Ionian&quot; is in naming the three =
Greek=20
    architectural <BR>orders, Doric, Ionic, and Corinthian. What's =
usually=20
    taught to beginning art <BR>history students is how to recognize the =

    columns, and I assume TSE would have <BR>been taught this in the =
intro class=20
    in ancient art that he took at Harvard. <BR>Doric columns are squat =
and=20
    cigar shaped and have a plain capital or top (as <BR>on the =
Parthenon).=20
    &nbsp;Ionic columns are more slender and have a volute (scroll) =
<BR>at the=20
    top. The Erechteoin has Ionic columns. Corinthian columns are the =
most=20
    <BR>slender of all, and the capital has acanthus flowers. If your =
wife has a=20
    copy <BR>of Janson, Gardner, or any other intro art history text, =
there's=20
    probably a <BR>picture of the various columns. Or maybe on the =
Internet=20
    (attention, Rick!). <BR><BR>All of the columns, and Greek temples =
generally,=20
    would have been made of <BR>Pentelic marble, the white marble that =
the=20
    Greeks quarried on mount <BR>Pentelicon. In photos of the Parthenon, =
that's=20
    the mountain one sees in the <BR>distance. So I take &quot;Ionian=20
    white&quot; to mean the color of white marble, or of <BR>the white =
marble=20
    used by the Greeks for Ionian (and all) columns. Greek <BR>temples,=20
    incidentally, have no mortar between the stones, which stay in place =

    <BR>just of their own weight. Plus I think there might be metal rods =
or=20
    (more <BR>likely) pegs inside the columns, which had to be made in =
sections.=20
    Marble <BR>weighs about 160 pounds per cubic foot, so it's easier to =
make=20
    tall columns <BR>in sections and stack the sections. <BR><BR>As =
you've=20
    probably noticed, Greek architecture was imitated a lot in later=20
    <BR>periods, right down to the courthouses in so many American towns =
that=20
    are <BR>meant to resemble Greek temples, columns and all. These =
aren't=20
    necessarily <BR>white or made of marble. &nbsp; <BR><BR>The gold =
Eliot=20
    mentions doesn't strike me as Greek. Remains of paint are on =
<BR>some Greek=20
    temples and sculpture, and there's a dispute about how they looked=20
    <BR>originally. Whether they were entirely painted or just =
highlighted with=20
    paint <BR>in some places. But I've never heard gold mentioned as one =
of the=20
    paint <BR>colors, and the use of gold paint and gold leaf is =
actually more=20
    typical of <BR>the middle ages and later. <BR><BR>So my question now =
is=20
    whether Wren used white (or white marble) Ionic <BR>columns, perhaps =
touched=20
    up with gold, in the church of Magnus Martyr. &nbsp; <BR>Pictures =
needed,=20
    and I'd look first at the interior. The phrase you mention, =
<BR>&quot;Ionian=20
    blue,&quot; sounds like a reference to the sea, or even the Aegean =
sea if=20
    <BR>&quot;Ionian&quot; is being used here as a synonym for=20
    &quot;Greek.&quot; It's possible a person <BR>wouldn't think of =
Ionic=20
    columns unless they knew at least the rudiments of <BR>art history. =
But tse=20
    was exposed to at least the rudiments, from that Harvard <BR>class =
in the=20
    history of ancient art. &nbsp;The person teaching it wasn't an art=20
    <BR>historian, but a teacher of Greek. So it might be fair to assume =
he's=20
    put at <BR>least as much stress on Greek art and architecture as on =
the work=20
    of the <BR>Sumerians, Egyptians, Romans, or whomever else was =
included in=20
    the class. <BR><BR>If I've disgraced myself by getting any of the =
above not=20
    quite right, Gunnar <BR>(who's an architect) will correct me.=20
    <BR><BR>Starting Monday, I'll be away from my computer for a few =
days, so=20
    may be slow <BR>in responding if there's a thread on this. You've =
raised a=20
    very interesting <BR>question, though, and I feel a little =
embarrased that I=20
    didn't pay much <BR>attention to the design of the interior when I =
visited=20
    the church many years <BR>ago. <BR><BR>best, <BR><BR>pat sloane=20
    <BR><BR></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3D"Arial Narrow" lang=3D0 =
size=3D2 FAMILY=20
    =3D SANSSERIF></B></FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C0F4B8.BE64A2C0--

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