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In a message dated 6/4/01 9:26:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [log in to unmask]
writes:
>
> In response to Pat, I don't see how you can claim definitive knowledge
> or interpretation of this passage without knowing Greek.
We were talking about the English translation, I hope. Though I don't want to
speak for Rick, and you'd best ask him if it was the Greek or English edition
he had in mind.
> I only mention this because of your adamant insistence that you 'are right'
> about it.
Sorry if this wasn't clear to you. We at last agreed on what the KJV says (I
can repost the verse for you if you want, and if you'll deign to read it in
English instead of Greek), but I don't think anyone thought we were
discussing the kind of absolute "meaning" that you're quite right to observe
probably doesn't exist.
Further, the idea that one only holds 'academics' to intellectual
standards is a kind
> of snobbishness;
Rick had mentioned in the past--you may have missed the postings--that he
isn't an academic and doesn't feel he should be held to whatever it is he
perceives as academic standards. I could respect a person feeling that way.
If, however, you reread the post of mine that you're complaining about,
you'll see that you've missed the point. My reason for praising Rick
Seddon--whom I genuinely admire--was to make the point that clear thinking
and careful reading are certainly not unique to academics.
> I find the idea that students, as you put it, 'have no basis on which to
> judge', repugnant: you make this claim at the same time as assuming (that
> is, judging without proper basis) that they will, you imply, therefore make
> the wrong judgement. I don't see how anyone can make this claim in regard
> to any group of people, or any individual adult (or child for that matter).
> They may not...etc etc
>
Nancy made the very good point, with which I strongly agree, that although
there's a great deal of material on the Internet, not all of it is reliable.
This can indeed be confusing to students, or so I've been told by my own
students and other students I'v e spoken with. We need to keep in mind that
not every student is a doctoral student like yourself, and not every doctoral
student is as clever or wise or sophisticated as you. Nobody is born knowing
who's a reliable authority on what. Most people don't know by the age of 14
or 18 either, and if you did, keep in mind that you may have been an
exception.
Here you may have made the jump from feeling that if you as a student feel
highly capable, then every student must feel highly capable. I don't know
whether, as a doctoral student, you still have contact with, say, high school
students, or whether you yourself knew less at that age of 12 than you know
today. But why not research the question a little by asking younger students
how they think, instead of assuming that they all think like you do? It's
possible, of course, that every English student is indeed exactly like you
and needs no guidance or assistance whatsoever. But I'm only familiar with
American students.
At this point, I have to confess that I myself am far less wise than you,
because I haven't the foggiest idea what your rant is supposed to be about in
this particular case. I was simply saying that although the Internet is full
of misinformation, we should still try, each of us, to do what we can not to
make the problem worse. If this doesn't suit your taste or your ideology, I'd
be curious whether you have any alternative recommendations of your own.
Nice to have you back--with a bang!
pat
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial Narrow" LANG="0"><B>In a message dated 6/4/01 9:26:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [log in to unmask]
<BR>writes:
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></B>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
<BR> In response to Pat, I don't see how you can claim definitive knowledge
<BR>or interpretation of this passage without knowing Greek. </FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><B>We were talking about the English translation, I hope. Though I don't want to
<BR>speak for Rick, and you'd best ask him if it was the Greek or English edition
<BR>he had in mind.
<BR></B>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">I only mention this because of your adamant insistence that you 'are right'
<BR>about it. </FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><B>Sorry if this wasn't clear to you. We at last agreed on what the KJV says (I
<BR>can repost the verse for you if you want, and if you'll deign to read it in
<BR>English instead of Greek), but I don't think anyone thought we were
<BR>discussing the kind of absolute "meaning" that you're quite right to observe
<BR>probably doesn't exist.
<BR></B>
<BR> Further, the idea that one only holds 'academics' to intellectual
<BR>standards is a kind </FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">of snobbishness; </FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><B>Rick had mentioned in the past--you may have missed the postings--that he
<BR>isn't an academic and doesn't feel he should be held to whatever it is he
<BR>perceives as academic standards. I could respect a person feeling that way.
<BR>If, however, you reread the post of mine that you're complaining about,
<BR>you'll see that you've missed the point. My reason for praising Rick
<BR>Seddon--whom I genuinely admire--was to make the point that clear thinking
<BR>and careful reading are certainly not unique to academics.
<BR></B>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"> I find the idea that students, as you put it, 'have no basis on which to
<BR>judge', repugnant: you make this claim at the same time as assuming (that
<BR>is, judging without proper basis) that they will, you imply, therefore make
<BR>the wrong judgement. I don't see how anyone can make this claim in regard
<BR>to any group of people, or any individual adult (or child for that matter).
<BR>They may not...etc etc
<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial Narrow" LANG="0"><B>Nancy made the very good point, with which I strongly agree, that although
<BR>there's a great deal of material on the Internet, not all of it is reliable.
<BR>This can indeed be confusing to students, or so I've been told by my own
<BR>students and other students I'v e spoken with. We need to keep in mind that
<BR>not every student is a doctoral student like yourself, and not every doctoral
<BR>student is as clever or wise or sophisticated as you. Nobody is born knowing
<BR>who's a reliable authority on what. Most people don't know by the age of 14
<BR>or 18 either, and if you did, keep in mind that you may have been an
<BR>exception.
<BR>
<BR>Here you may have made the jump from feeling that if you as a student feel
<BR>highly capable, then every student must feel highly capable. I don't know
<BR>whether, as a doctoral student, you still have contact with, say, high school
<BR>students, or whether you yourself knew less at that age of 12 than you know
<BR>today. But why not research the question a little by asking younger students
<BR>how they think, instead of assuming that they all think like you do? It's
<BR>possible, of course, that every English student is indeed exactly like you
<BR>and needs no guidance or assistance whatsoever. But I'm only familiar with
<BR>American students.
<BR>
<BR>At this point, I have to confess that I myself am far less wise than you,
<BR>because I haven't the foggiest idea what your rant is supposed to be about in
<BR>this particular case. I was simply saying that although the Internet is full
<BR>of misinformation, we should still try, each of us, to do what we can not to
<BR>make the problem worse. If this doesn't suit your taste or your ideology, I'd
<BR>be curious whether you have any alternative recommendations of your own.
<BR>
<BR>Nice to have you back--with a bang!
<BR>
<BR>pat</B></FONT></HTML>
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