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TSE  May 2001

TSE May 2001

Subject:

Re: memory in TWL

From:

"Nancy Gish" <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 21 May 2001 13:39:33 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

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text/plain (154 lines)

Dear Richard,

I don't now remember the source exactly, but Eliot said himself that at the 
time of writing TWL he had considered being a Buddhist.  But that with his 
heritage and culture it was Christianity that worked.  I'm paraphrasing, but 
you are saying what he did claim himself in a somewhat different way.
Nancy



Date sent:      	Mon, 21 May 2001 11:14:35 -0600
Send reply to:  	[log in to unmask]
From:           	"Richard Seddon" <[log in to unmask]>
To:             	<[log in to unmask]>
Subject:        	Re: memory in TWL

J.P.

I am very interested in your thinking concerning TSE as a Buddhist
Christian and would like to see you share more of your thinking.   I've
wondered in an undeveloped fashion along the same lines.

Is there any synergism with Tom's ideas of "Ash Wednesday" and TSE
adopting Christianity as an act of faith not belief.  Faith in an
unstructured way but faith in the sense (I hope I'm not misinterpreting
Tom) that committment to a religion (any religion) would lead to spiritual
enlightenment.  I often thought that perhaps TSE wearied of waiting for a
thunderbolt of revelation and said to himself "Okay,  I am just going to
start believing and see where that takes  me".   Belief as a conscious
positive singular act in the face of and at right angles to prior
unbelief.

Christianity then made sense because it was solidly within TSE's
heritage/tradition as an  American/European.  Your statement would posit,
to my thinking, that TSE was actually Buddhist in philosophy/theology
wearing the trappings of a Christian because those trappings, like old
clothes,  fit better.

I do not understand your tie with Bradley.  I am only tangentially
familiar with Bradley but thought he was most concerned with defining and
exploring "experience" as that "experience" builds an individual's reality
towards an ultimate "experience".   Perhaps reading Bradley is in order
and your suggestions as a starting place would be welcome.

Rick Seddon
McIntosh, NM, USA
-----Original Message-----
From: Earls, JP <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Sunday, May 20, 2001 8:30 AM
Subject: RE: memory in TWL


>Rickard--
>
>Thanks for the quotation from Hesse.  This fits in very neatly with my
thesis
>about the moral philosophy in FQ, which, I contend, is Bradley's as
presented
>chiefly in his _Ethical Studies_.   Bradley proposes a realization of the
self
>as the end of significant human action.  The self, of course, is not the
>personality we have developed through time, but the Absolute, the
realization of
>which all significant human action is tending.  The indication that one
>is moving toward this realization is that his/her intention is directed
>toward
an
>ever expanding community.  Eliot expresses this in LG III, just after his
>disquisition on the three types of nettles (the live nettle=desire, dead
>nettle=detachment, in-between nettle=indifference).  This passage is of
signal
>importance: Eliot, the Buddhist Christian, must make room for Christian
love in
>the context of Buddhist non-attachment.  (See Gardner's _Composition of
>FQ_
for
>the dead nettle.  It isn't dead.)  Eliot then illustrates how through
memory one
>can remember with love the ecstatic pursuits of the past now purified
>from
their
>egoistic attachments by consequent suffering and fitted into a new
>pattern
of
>broader significance.  Thus Eliot:
>
> This is the use of memory:
>For liberation--not less of love but expanding
>Of love beyond desire, and so liberation
>>>From the future as well as the past.  Thus, love of a country
>Begins as attachment to our own field of action
>And comes to find that action of little importance
>Though never indifferent.
>
>Where does the Hesse quotation come from?
>
>J. P. Earls, OSB
>English Department]
>St. John's University
>Collegeville, MN 56321
>[log in to unmask]
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Rickard Parker [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
>Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2001 7:49 AM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: memory in TWL
>
>gopika jadeja wrote:
>
>> Tiresias in TWL, foresees everything. Now, if he has
>> foresight all that he sees and all thathappens are
>> both in his memory. If he is, as Eliot says the
>> central figure in the poem, then it is all about
>> memory, isn't it? Collective memory at that, not of
>> one civilization but of many, if we take into
>> consideration his allusions from various traditions.
>
>Was it personal memory and personal desire or the collective version of
>these?
>
>          April is the cruellest month, breeding
>          Lilacs out of the dead land, mixing
>          Memory and desire, stirring
>          Dull roots with spring rain.
>
>I say personal but Eliot threw in the collective to show his pain was
>universal.
>
>Here are a few lines of Hesse that were just a few lines away from the
lines
>that Eliot noted in TWL:
>
>Rather the "invalid" of this sort transposes the events of his own soul
into
>general terms applicable to mankind. Everyone has visions, everyone has
>imaginings, everyone has dreams. And every vision, every dream, every
>thought and inspiration a person has, may, on the way from the
>unconscious to consciousness, permit of a thousand different
>interpretations, each one of which may be right. The seer and prophet
>does not interpret his visions personally, the nightmare that presses
>upon him does not speak to him of personal illness, of his own death, but
>rather of the larger whole as whose organ, whose antenna, he lives. This
>whole may be a family, a party, a nation, it can as well be all mankind.
>
>Regards,
>   Rick Parker
>
>
>

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