LISTSERV mailing list manager LISTSERV 16.0

Help for TSE Archives


TSE Archives

TSE Archives


TSE@PO.MISSOURI.EDU


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Proportional Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

TSE Home

TSE Home

TSE  March 2001

TSE March 2001

Subject:

Re: Dans le Restaurant and the Commedia'm not saying that Steve's

From:

"Richard Seddon" <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 18 Mar 2001 13:44:46 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (350 lines)

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C0AFB1.9841DFA0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Pat=20

The temple Classics' notes give;

 _lonza_=3D leopard=3D worldly pleasures &  the city of Florence
_leone_=3D lion=3D Ambition & the Royal house of France
_lupa_=3Dwolf=3DAvarice & the Papal See

They do not say where they get these equivalents from

The Temple Classics edition further refers the reader to Jeremiah 5:6 =
which reads

 "Wherefore a lion out of the forest shall slay them, and a wolf of the =
evenings shall spoil them, a leopard shall watch over their cities: =
every one that goeth out thence shall be torn in pieces: because their =
transgressions are many and their backslidings are increased."

Of interest to our discussion my Random House pocket Italian dictionary =
gives _lonza_=3D pork loin.

Also earlier I said that Dante suffered from the sin of pride.  He =
probably could identify with all three of these sins.

Rick Seddon
McIntosh, NM, USA
    -----Original Message-----
    From: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
    To: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
    Date: Sunday, March 18, 2001 12:48 PM
    Subject: Re: Dans le Restaurant and the Commedia'm not saying that =
Steve's=20
   =20
   =20
    In a message dated 3/18/01 1:49:04 PM Eastern Standard Time,=20
    [log in to unmask] writes:=20
   =20
   =20
   =20
        The connections are arbitrary.  There are woods all over 2 =
millennia of=20
        Western poetry. =20
   =20
   =20
    As I understood it, from Steve's description, the commentator was =
noticing=20
    that in Dan le Restaurant, the waiter is frightened by an animal =
(dog). And=20
    in the opening of the Commedia Dante is frightened by three animals =
(lion,.=20
    leopard, wolf).=20
   =20
    Also you'll recall that Eliot spoke about the portion of La Vita =
Nuova where=20
    Dante tells of falling in love with Beatrice at age 9. Eliot says =
the number=20
    9 might have been chosen for symbolic reasons, as we should =
understand that=20
    sexual awareness first occurs at an earlier age (Mr. Eliot as the =
good little=20
    Freudian!). And now we have Eliot writing his own poem about a =
person's=20
    earliest awareness of sexuality. So there's a lot of detail to sort =
out=20
    before one can answer Steve's question, and I'd really like to see =
the entire=20
    article.=20
   =20
    The "mid-way" of life is not like the "mid-way" of some child's =
sexual=20
    fantasy interrupted by a big dog.  None of it is LIKE Dante.  =20
   =20
    The animals that accost Dante are usually interpreted by the =
annotators of=20
    the Commedia as symbols of the lusts of the flesh, so it's not out =
of the=20
    question, in my opinion, that Steve's author might have noticed =
something of=20
    interest. Also it's typical of Eliot to make precisely the kind of =
jumps you=20
    want to brush aside in this case--mid-way of one thing becomes =
mid-way of=20
    something else. To take a word Dante used in one sense and use it in =
another=20
    sense is one way of achieving repetition with variation, that good =
old=20
    "Classical" value. Poets make these kinds of jumps all the time, =
maybe Eliot=20
    far more often than you're allowing. Again, how is one supposed to =
decide=20
    without reading the whole article?=20
   =20
    The poem ends in the Phlebas episode, which does not fit into any of =
this=20
    unless you want to claim it is a kind of Dantesque punishment or you =
want=20
    to stick on a divine salvation of purification by water.  =20
   =20
    I don't like to discuss Dans le Resatuarant without Dirge, and I've =
taken the=20
    position that all three of Eliot's drowned men are the same drowned =
man--that=20
    we're being offered multiple views of a single corpse, not multiple =
corpses.=20
    And that it's all the drowning of Dante's Ulysses, filtered through =
Joyce's=20
    Ulysses. Notice that Phlebas first appears as a Phoenician, and =
Joyce rightly=20
    or wrongly believed that Homer's Odyssey (where Ulysses is the main=20
    character) was based on an earlier  Phoenician story. So drowning is =
in fact=20
    a Dantesque punishment, at least for Ulysses. On the waiter's need =
for a=20
    bath, Dante is told to wash himself in Purgatory. So there's some =
intimation=20
    that he needed to do so, that he wasn't clean when he entered the =
"dark=20
    woods." On origins, my sense is that Eliot's drowning episodes were =
intended=20
    at least in part as actualizations of Prufrock's anticipatory =
drowning=20
    ("human voices wake us and we drown"). I'm surprised that those who =
want an=20
    autobiographical slant haven't addressed the question of what =
drowning--that=20
    persistent image!--might have meant to Eliot. Here one can haul out =
Freud and=20
    Jung and really make sense.=20
   =20
    Again, I'm not saying I agree with Steve's author--I too want to see =
more=20
    connectors, as well as the entire article. Maybe he'll just send it =
to me, if=20
    nobody else wants to read it.=20
   =20
    pat sloane=20
   =20
   =20
   =20


------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C0AFB1.9841DFA0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Pat </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>The temple Classics' notes give;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>&nbsp;_lonza_=3D leopard=3D worldly pleasures =
&amp;&nbsp; the city=20
of Florence</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>_leone_=3D lion=3D Ambition &amp; the Royal house of =

France</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>_lupa_=3Dwolf=3DAvarice &amp; the Papal =
See</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>They do not say where they get these equivalents=20
from</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>The Temple Classics edition further =
refers the=20
reader to Jeremiah 5:6 which reads</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>&nbsp;&quot;Wherefore a lion out of =
the forest=20
shall slay them, and a wolf of the evenings shall spoil them, a leopard =
shall=20
watch over their cities: every one that goeth out thence shall be torn =
in=20
pieces: because their transgressions are many and their backslidings are =

increased.&quot;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Of interest to our discussion my Random House pocket =
Italian=20
dictionary gives _lonza_=3D pork loin.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Also earlier I said that Dante suffered from the sin =
of=20
pride.&nbsp; He probably could identify with all three of these=20
sins.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Rick Seddon</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>McIntosh, NM, USA</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B><A href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A> =
&lt;<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>&gt;<BR><B>To: =
</B><A=20
    href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A> =
&lt;<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>&gt;<BR>=
<B>Date:=20
    </B>Sunday, March 18, 2001 12:48 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: Dans le=20
    Restaurant and the Commedia'm not saying that Steve's=20
    <BR><BR></DIV></FONT><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT =
face=3D"Arial Narrow"=20
    lang=3D0 size=3D3 FAMILY =3D SANSSERIF><B>In a message dated 3/18/01 =
1:49:04 PM=20
    Eastern Standard Time, <BR><A=20
    href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A> writes:=20
    <BR><BR></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial lang=3D0 size=3D2 =
FAMILY =3D=20
    SANSSERIF></B><BR>
    <BLOCKQUOTE=20
    style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"=20
    TYPE =3D CITE>The connections are arbitrary. &nbsp;There are woods =
all=20
        over 2 millennia of <BR>Western poetry. &nbsp;</FONT><FONT =
color=3D#000000=20
        face=3DArial lang=3D0 size=3D3 FAMILY =3D =
SANSSERIF></BLOCKQUOTE><BR></FONT><FONT=20
    color=3D#000000 face=3D"Arial Narrow" lang=3D0 size=3D3 FAMILY =3D =
SANSSERIF><B><BR>As=20
    I understood it, from Steve's description, the commentator was =
noticing=20
    <BR>that in Dan le Restaurant, the waiter is frightened by an animal =
(dog).=20
    And <BR>in the opening of the Commedia Dante is frightened by three =
animals=20
    (lion,. <BR>leopard, wolf). <BR><BR>Also you'll recall that Eliot =
spoke=20
    about the portion of La Vita Nuova where <BR>Dante tells of falling =
in love=20
    with Beatrice at age 9. Eliot says the number <BR>9 might have been =
chosen=20
    for symbolic reasons, as we should understand that <BR>sexual =
awareness=20
    first occurs at an earlier age (Mr. Eliot as the good little =
<BR>Freudian!).=20
    And now we have Eliot writing his own poem about a person's =
<BR>earliest=20
    awareness of sexuality. So there's a lot of detail to sort out =
<BR>before=20
    one can answer Steve's question, and I'd really like to see the =
entire=20
    <BR>article. <BR><BR></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial =
lang=3D0 size=3D2=20
    FAMILY =3D SANSSERIF></B>The &quot;mid-way&quot; of life is not like =
the=20
    &quot;mid-way&quot; of some child's sexual <BR>fantasy interrupted =
by a big=20
    dog. &nbsp;None of it is LIKE Dante. &nbsp; <BR><BR></FONT><FONT=20
    color=3D#000000 face=3D"Arial Narrow" lang=3D0 size=3D3 FAMILY =3D =
SANSSERIF><B>The=20
    animals that accost Dante are usually interpreted by the annotators =
of=20
    <BR>the Commedia as symbols of the lusts of the flesh, so it's not =
out of=20
    the <BR>question, in my opinion, that Steve's author might have =
noticed=20
    something of <BR>interest. Also it's typical of Eliot to make =
precisely the=20
    kind of jumps you <BR>want to brush aside in this case--mid-way of =
one thing=20
    becomes mid-way of <BR>something else. To take a word Dante used in =
one=20
    sense and use it in another <BR>sense is one way of achieving =
repetition=20
    with variation, that good old <BR>&quot;Classical&quot; value. Poets =
make=20
    these kinds of jumps all the time, maybe Eliot <BR>far more often =
than=20
    you're allowing. Again, how is one supposed to decide <BR>without =
reading=20
    the whole article? <BR></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3D"Arial =
Narrow" lang=3D0=20
    size=3D2 FAMILY =3D SANSSERIF></B><BR></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 =
face=3DArial=20
    lang=3D0 size=3D2 FAMILY =3D SANSSERIF>The poem ends in the Phlebas =
episode, which=20
    does not fit into any of this <BR>unless you want to claim it is a =
kind of=20
    Dantesque punishment or you want <BR>to stick on a divine salvation =
of=20
    purification by water. &nbsp; <BR><BR></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000=20
    face=3D"Arial Narrow" lang=3D0 size=3D3 FAMILY =3D SANSSERIF><B>I =
don't like to=20
    discuss Dans le Resatuarant without Dirge, and I've taken the =
<BR>position=20
    that all three of Eliot's drowned men are the same drowned man--that =

    <BR>we're being offered multiple views of a single corpse, not =
multiple=20
    corpses. <BR>And that it's all the drowning of Dante's Ulysses, =
filtered=20
    through Joyce's <BR>Ulysses. Notice that Phlebas first appears as a=20
    Phoenician, and Joyce rightly <BR>or wrongly believed that Homer's =
Odyssey=20
    (where Ulysses is the main <BR>character) was based on an earlier=20
    &nbsp;Phoenician story. So drowning is in fact <BR>a Dantesque =
punishment,=20
    at least for Ulysses. On the waiter's need for a <BR>bath, Dante is =
told to=20
    wash himself in Purgatory. So there's some intimation <BR>that he =
needed to=20
    do so, that he wasn't clean when he entered the &quot;dark =
<BR>woods.&quot;=20
    On origins, my sense is that Eliot's drowning episodes were intended =
<BR>at=20
    least in part as actualizations of Prufrock's anticipatory drowning=20
    <BR>(&quot;human voices wake us and we drown&quot;). I'm surprised =
that=20
    those who want an <BR>autobiographical slant haven't addressed the =
question=20
    of what drowning--that <BR>persistent image!--might have meant to =
Eliot.=20
    Here one can haul out Freud and <BR>Jung and really make sense.=20
    <BR><BR>Again, I'm not saying I agree with Steve's author--I too =
want to see=20
    more <BR>connectors, as well as the entire article. Maybe he'll just =
send it=20
    to me, if <BR>nobody else wants to read it. <BR><BR>pat sloane=20
    <BR></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial lang=3D0 size=3D2 =
FAMILY =3D=20
    SANSSERIF></B><BR></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3D"Arial Narrow" =
lang=3D0=20
    size=3D3 FAMILY =3D SANSSERIF><B><BR></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 =
face=3DArial=20
    lang=3D0 size=3D2 FAMILY =3D=20
SANSSERIF></B><BR></FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C0AFB1.9841DFA0--

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

Advanced Options


Options

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password


Search Archives

Search Archives


Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe


Archives

August 2019
July 2019
June 2019
May 2019
April 2019
March 2019
February 2019
January 2019
December 2018
November 2018
October 2018
September 2018
August 2018
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
April 2018
March 2018
February 2018
January 2018
December 2017
November 2017
October 2017
September 2017
August 2017
July 2017
June 2017
May 2017
April 2017
March 2017
February 2017
January 2017
December 2016
November 2016
October 2016
September 2016
August 2016
July 2016
June 2016
May 2016
April 2016
March 2016
February 2016
January 2016
December 2015
November 2015
October 2015
September 2015
August 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
July 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
November 2013
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
May 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
October 2006
September 2006
August 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006
April 2006
March 2006
February 2006
January 2006
December 2005
November 2005
October 2005
September 2005
August 2005
July 2005
June 2005
May 2005
April 2005
March 2005
February 2005
January 2005
December 2004
November 2004
October 2004
September 2004
August 2004
July 2004
June 2004
May 2004
April 2004
March 2004
February 2004
January 2004
December 2003
November 2003
October 2003
September 2003
August 2003
July 2003
June 2003
May 2003
April 2003
March 2003
February 2003
January 2003
December 2002
November 2002
October 2002
September 2002
August 2002
July 2002
June 2002
May 2002
April 2002
March 2002
February 2002
January 2002
December 2001
November 2001
October 2001
September 2001
August 2001
July 2001
June 2001
May 2001
April 2001
March 2001
February 2001
January 2001
March 1996
February 1996
January 1996
December 1995
November 1995

ATOM RSS1 RSS2



PO.MISSOURI.EDU

Secured by F-Secure Anti-Virus CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager