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TSE  March 2001

TSE March 2001

Subject:

Re: OFF TOPIC - Map coloring

From:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Mon, 12 Mar 2001 08:18:03 -0500

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From:  Tom Gray@MITEL on 03/12/2001 08:18 AM

He controversy wasn't that the computer examined all possible examples since
this is essentially what a mathematical proof is. Someone examines a problem and
classifies all possible types of solution. That person then proves that a
property holds for every one of those classifications. In the case of a proof by
induction, there can be an infinite number of these classifications, one proves
that it is true for the first and then proves if it is true for n it must be
true for n+1 and so it is true for all. The issue as I remember it was about two
things:

a) the exact problem was not that interesting. The interest was in the
development in mathematics and mathematical understanding which were going into
solving it. Many workers had trued to restrict the number of possible map
classifications over the years to a tractable number to some success. The
program short circuited this process and just analysed several hundred thousand
possible cases which covered all possibilities. There was little mathematical
benefit to this.

b) the proof came in the form of a computer program and no one could be sure
that there were no bugs in the program. A mathematical proof is supposed to be a
mechanical statement that in principle someone could follow without any insight.
Perform each operation as detailed by the proof and the result is inescapable.
No one could possibly do what the computer did so this type of justification for
mathematical proof was lost. The proof was verified by the development of an
independent computer program which redid the checking. This was a new form of
justification.

What Cantor proved is that there are multiple kinds of infinity. To be precise
he proved that there a an infinite number of transfinite numbers. In particular
he proved that the cardinality of the natural numbers ( these are the integers
or counting numbers from one up so 1, 2,3,4 ... and cardinality is the number of
them this transfinite number is usually denoted by the Hebrew letter Aleph) is
less than the cardinality of the real numbers (all numbers of decimal placeswn
whicfh is called teh continum and denoted by the small letter c).  He did this
by using an argument that showed that no matter how many real numbers were
placed in a list (i.e. matched with the counting numbers so there would be a
first real, a second real and so on) a new one can be created that is not in
that list. Indeed between any two real numbers there are more real numbers than
there are natural numbers.  To be even more mystical the cardinality of the set
of all real numbers between any two real numbers is the same as the cardinality
of all real numbers which to me seems to be amazing.

Infinities are difficult concepts and many people objected to these results as
unjustified especially since the proof that Cantor developed - the diagonal
proof - relies on operations on an infinite number of operations. However by
examing this issue, Cantor developed set theory which is a fundamental part of
logic and mathematics.

Tehe is a widespread industry now in computer science deaprtments using
mathematical proofs to show the correcness of computer programs. Despite teh
claims of its proposnts this method has had little practical importance. However
it does indicate that there can be no possibility of a computer program ever
correctly claiming that it has found a proof that differs from a mathematiocal
proof. Indeed the concept of program as a set of steps to produce a result comes
from mathematics.






[log in to unmask] on 03/12/2001 07:23:56 AM

Please respond to [log in to unmask]

To:   [log in to unmask]
cc:    (bcc: Tom Gray/Kan/Mitel)

Subject:  Re: OFF TOPIC - Map coloring



In a message dated 3/11/01 7:27:31 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:


> In Dublin I read part of the book on the history of the map-colouring
> problem and how it was solved, which was really interesting to read - it
> was one of the first proofs in which computers played a great part and
> hence it was and still is very controversial.

Arwin,

What's the book? The reason the proof was controversial is that it isn't
actually a "proof" in any logical or mathematical sense. Just a brute force
examining of all examples the computer could think of, and no proof (or way
of proving) that the program was actually sufficient to test "every" possible
example.

Personally, I think the map-coloring problem is a design problem, not a
mathematical problem, and that's precisely why problems arose in trying to
formulate a solution in mathematical terms. One question is whether there are
criteria for identifying a mathematical problem as opposed to some other kind
of problem. If these criteria exist, I sure don't see where they are, and the
envelope can't be pushed to include any question with a numerical answer.
There's no provable mathematical formula, for example, that allows anyone to
determine what numbers are used on the license plate for my car. And the
question isn't actually a mathematical question, even though the answer can
be expressed in numbers. One can get an answer by checking the motor vehicle
records. But looking up a number on a list isn't the same thing as
constructing a mathematical proof...unless mathematicians are willing to
broaden their standard of what constitutes a mathematical proof so that it
includes all the "trivial" proofs that seem to be ignored at present.

I think Cantor developed some proof that there can't be any highest possible
number or any end to the number series...which tends to validate the common
sense observation that no matter how large a number is, one can always add 1
to it. So why should we believe a computer that erroneously tells us that
there actually is a highest possible number...this being the highest number
that this particular computer can express given its limitations of memory and
technology?

In any case, I'd like to see the actual program for supposedly "proving" the
four color theorem, which I think came from U of Illinois. Was it reprinted
in the book you read? It's supposed to be teribbly long, rather than a
relatively short program that's used recursively. I'd like to see whether
what made it so long is an attempt to define "every possible" situation.

There was a period, you know, when an attempt was made to demonstrate that
computers can do all kinds of things they aren't actually capable of doing.
One engineer was claiming a computer could make Mondrian paintings, and
another started that stupid "the Mona Lisa is Leonardo in drag" stuff. Here,
the arguments were set forth in relatively brief articles. And when one
finished reading the articles, one realized each was written by a person who
didn't know a thing about art, and therefore didn't know how to interpret the
data.

In the 4-color theorem, too, it seems to me from what I've read that the
programmers skipped too many steps. Starting at square one, the first job is
to program a computer to construct mathematical proofs. Until that's been
accomplished, a computer isn't able to construct a mathematical proof of
anything. And this of course is the borderline question that I hope is being
considered in AI. What's the limit to what a computer can do? And what
problems can only be solved by a sentient being?

All that to-do about computers playing chess is far from persuasive, because
chess has a finite number of possible moves.  What about programming a
computer to write a recipe book, with some assurance that the receipes will
be superior to those a human being might develop?  Here, it's a tougher
problem, because more is involved than shuffling numbers, which is all
computers can do. But, as above, I think the main problem with any
computerized "mathematical proof" of the four-color theorem is that one can't
skip the necessary step of developing a program capable of constructing
mathematical proofs.

pat





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