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TSE  March 2001

TSE March 2001

Subject:

Re: OFF TOPIC - Literary parlor game

From:

"Gunnar Jauch" <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 11 Mar 2001 23:10:07 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

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> DIESE NACHRICHT IST IN MIME-FORMAT. Da Ihr Mailreader dieses Format nicht
unterstźtzt, kšnnte diese Nachricht ganz oder teilweise unlesbar sein.

--MS_Mac_OE_3067197007_794665_MIME_Part
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Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable


----------
Von: "Arwin van Arum" <[log in to unmask]>
An: <[log in to unmask]>
Betreff: RE: OFF TOPIC - Literary parlor game
Datum: Son, 11. M=E4r 2001 14:12 Uhr


Thanks. I've read enough of these philosophers and psychologists to last me
for a while - rather read the modern stuff. Just yesterday I read a
newspaper article about research which sheds completely new light on how
very young children behave just like scientists (the reverse has also been
mentioned). Particularly striking I think was that 18 month olds could
already distinguish between their own desires and those of others (whereas
14 month olds couldn't). Alison Gopnik, Berkeley, is the researcher
responsible and more popularly known (at least, that's what the article
says) through co-authoring the book "The Scientist in the Crib: How childre=
n
learn and what they tell us about the mind." 
 
Had to read the Sartre in French, but it wasn't half bad - another book
where about 70 pages are spent on describing a woman on a veranda where
she's basically just whistling all the time was much worse (my memory must
have repressed the title). De Beauvoir was all over my mother's bookcase an=
d
I read scraps and pieces of many of her books, but at that time wasn't up t=
o
reading any of them in full. Sontag I read in university. The rest though
I'll keep in mind and take a look at. 
 
I think my main problem is that I don't really know what I want. I'm in a
difficult position - on the one hand there's this practical person inside o=
f
me, who needs to do something which is very much rooted in society; I have
to be part of the here and now, do something which affects the lives of
people today, and it has to be something banally useful. I found my place i=
n
that regard as a programmer, at least for now. But on the other hand there
is a creative urge that needs to be released early and often; when I don't
for a while I don't feel completely alive. If I give either priority I've
descovered this will lead me to depression, so I have to find a balance
between the two. I have found a bit of balance in music, but a big part of
my true love is in language, and it has been seriously awakened by going to
Ireland and Scotland. I think I inadvertently reawakened the writer in me,
although I don't really feel ready to write because I feel I need more
experience, I need to be more alive ("Need more input" - Johnny Five). Then
again, the reader in me needs a context, and my novel does, I think, provid=
e
the right context. 
 
I'm sure many listmembers know this, dear Arwin.

For most of us on the list, literature is not a primary occupation; the lov=
e
of the language has made them join this forum.
And, although I have a high esteem for programmers, I can understand that
the ever so rational aspect of the digital world can lead one to depression=
..
This is not to be taken lightly, as I know from friends and relatives
stricken by this scary affliction.

I still have this language crisis though. This list is often the only part
of my life that keeps me actively involved with the English language. On th=
e
one hand it is my language of preference, as it has shaped the artistic me
and I lived in it throughout my student days; yet the Dutch language is the
language I hear every day, the language I can study in great and subtle
detail by listening people use it in every possible situation. It is very
hard to write a modern novel without being in direct contact with the spoke=
n
language, and now my only options are to write either a novel in completely
colourless British or American accents, or not write in English at all. It
is a true dilemma. 

We are among the few Europeans on the TSE list of non-English origin, so I
feel a certain sense of solidarity (apart from the fact that the Dutch and
the Swiss share a number of similar traits. We envy the Dutch openness,
stemming from the sea, which is expressed in a literal openness in all Dutc=
h
towns: they do not believe in curtains...!). And for me too, the TSE list i=
s
one of the few activities where I can use the language (besides hanging out
in Zurich's Lion's Pub with a couple old Brit gits doing the Time's cosswor=
d
puzzle while swillig Guinness and Cyder...). You have been schooled in
English,  therefore your mastery of the langugage is far better than mine.
However, in spite of that I'd like to discourage you to try writing
literature in any other language than in your mother tongue. TSE's French
poetry, e.g., always strikes me as somewhat wooden,  not nearly as evocativ=
e
as his English poetry. I wonder, has there ever been writers who could get
away in a foreign language? I think Hilaire Belloque (whose *Tarantella* I
have memorized) was a Frenchman, but was perhaps raised in England. Marcia
will surely know.
 
I think you already told me just to write in English before, and perhaps
that's still the best option. I should write the story perhaps without to
much regard for the actual language at first, as it is (in a novel)
ultimately secondary to the story; or at least in terms of construction -
the story is what gives the language a backbone. Or perhaps I can use
foreign accents ... ;-)
 
Has anyone seen Buffy the Vampire Slayer incidentally?

Buffy the Vampire Slayer -- if the series are nealy as good as the name I
ought to check'em out!

 Contrary to what you might believe it is really a book-person's series,
full of lovely irony and reference, and despite it's Gothicism very much
rooted in today's society. I feel very much at home watching it and love
every minute. I bought the first season on DVD (12 episodes x 45 min. for
about $60, no commercials - though I mostly followed the series on BBC whic=
h
also doesn't have them) - it's the first series ever I found worth buying,
in which it beats even Star Trek TNG and Lois & Clark, series which I loved
to watch. But Buffy is really something else - and that it's on DVD helps
too, because you can go to any point in any episode in an instant, which
makes it more like a book than ever before.    
 
If you have a DVD, buy it and watch all twelve episodes. If you weren't
pleased, I'll give you your money back. ;-)
 
I think perhaps I just need to be in love ... 

That can't hurt -- oh, but, on second thoughts,  it can!

In another post,  on Marc Aurel,  I have written: *Its stoic wisdom will
tell you that in the long run nothing is very important.* 
There has been a small but important omission: I should have written
*nothing much*.

One of the few very important things, I am convinced, is mentioned in 4Q's
focal point:

Who then devised the torment? Love.
Love is the unfamiliar Name
Behind the hands that wove
The intolerable shirt of flames
That human power cannot remove.

So here's my proposition to all of you, dear friends out there, reading my
rambling post (perhaps a little naive and simplistic, sounding off like an
old Boy Scout):
Do an act of love each day.
For reasons of some Spiritual Physics, you will profit from it; the good
vibrations you sent out will come back to you. If this simpe maxime would b=
e
followed universally, paradise on earth would be near.

Enough pontificating ;-)

Whishing you all a pleasant week,


Gunnar






 
Kazanzakis (novels), Buckminster Fuller, de Rougemont (Love in the Western 
World), Maritain, Focillon,  Bertrand Russell, Wittgenstein's Blue Book and=
 
Brown Book, Mario Praz (Mnemosyne), Goethe's Farbenlehre (for the scientist=
 
in you), Paul Celan (poems), Isaac Rosenberg (poems), Sartre) No Exit), 
Simone de Beauvoir (The Second Sex), Wiesel (Night), Edwin Abbott   
(Flatland), Rudy Rucker (The Fourth Dimension), Martin Gardner (The 
Ambidextrous Universe), Sutton (The Particle Connection), Robert Jastrow
(The 
Enchanted Loom), Susan Sontag (Against Interpretation), Harold Bloom (The 
Book of J), Freud (Jokes and Their Relation to the Unconscious), Jung's 
Introduction to the I Ching, ...plus anything on the history of art, and no=
t

just western art. Then go back and focus on the Dadaists and Surrealists,
and 
get a subscription to Leonardo Magazine (art and technology). 

pat 





--MS_Mac_OE_3067197007_794665_MIME_Part
Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: OFF TOPIC - Literary parlor game</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY BGCOLOR=3D"#FFFFFF">
<BR>
----------<BR>
Von: &quot;Arwin van Arum&quot; &lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;<BR>
An: &lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;<BR>
Betreff: RE: OFF TOPIC - Literary parlor game<BR>
Datum: Son, 11. M=E4r 2001 14:12 Uhr<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><FONT SIZE=3D"2">Thanks. I've read enough o=
f these philosophers and psychologists to last me for a while - rather read =
the modern stuff. Just yesterday I read a newspaper article about research w=
hich sheds completely new light on how very young children behave just like =
scientists (the reverse has also been mentioned). Particularly striking I th=
ink was that 18 month olds could already distinguish between their own desir=
es and those of others (whereas 14 month olds couldn't). Alison Gopnik, Berk=
eley, is the researcher responsible and more popularly known (at least, that=
's what the article says) through co-authoring the book &quot;The Scientist =
in the Crib: How children learn and what they tell us about the mind.&quot; =
<BR>
</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;<BR>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><FONT SIZE=3D"2">Had to read the Sartre in French, but =
it wasn't half bad - another book where about 70 pages are spent on describi=
ng a woman on a veranda where she's basically just whistling all the time wa=
s much worse (my memory must have repressed the title). De Beauvoir was all =
over my mother's bookcase and I read scraps and pieces of many of her books,=
 but at that time wasn't up to reading any of them in full. Sontag I read in=
 university. The rest though I'll keep in mind and take a look at. <BR>
</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;<BR>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><FONT SIZE=3D"2">I think my main problem is that I don'=
t really know what I want. I'm in a difficult position - on the one hand the=
re's this practical person inside of me, who needs to do something which is =
very much rooted in society; I have to be part of the here and now, do somet=
hing which affects the lives of people today, and it has to be something ban=
ally useful. I found my place in that regard as a programmer, at least for n=
ow. But on the other hand there is a creative urge that needs to be released=
 early and often; when I don't for a while I don't feel completely alive. If=
 I give either priority I've descovered this will lead me to depression, so =
I have to find a balance between the two. I have found a bit of balance in m=
usic, but a big part of my true love is in language, and it has been serious=
ly awakened by going to Ireland and Scotland. I think I inadvertently reawak=
ened the writer in me, although I don't really feel ready to write because I=
 feel I need more experience, I need to be more alive (&quot;Need more input=
&quot; - Johnny Five). Then again, the reader in me needs a context, and my =
novel does, I think, provide the right context. <BR>
</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;<BR>
I'm sure many listmembers know this, dear Arwin.<BR>
<BR>
For most of us on the list, literature is not a primary occupation; the lov=
e of the language has made them join this forum.<BR>
And, although I have a high esteem for programmers, I can understand that t=
he ever so rational aspect of the digital world can lead one to depression. =
This is not to be taken lightly, as I know from friends and relatives strick=
en by this scary affliction.<BR>
<BR>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><FONT SIZE=3D"2">I still have this language crisis thou=
gh. This list is often the only part of my life that keeps me actively invol=
ved with the English language. On the one hand it is my language of preferen=
ce, as it has shaped the artistic me and I lived in it throughout my student=
 days; yet the Dutch language is the language I hear every day, the language=
 I can study in great and subtle detail by listening people use it in every =
possible situation. It is very hard to write a modern novel without being in=
 direct contact with the spoken language, and now my only options are to wri=
te either a novel in completely colourless British or American accents, or n=
ot write in English at all. It is a true dilemma. <BR>
<BR>
</FONT></FONT>We are among the few Europeans on the TSE list of non-English=
 origin, so I feel a certain sense of solidarity (apart from the fact that t=
he Dutch and the Swiss share a number of similar traits. We envy the Dutch o=
penness, stemming from the sea, which is expressed in a literal openness in =
all Dutch towns: they do not believe in curtains...!). And for me too, the T=
SE list is one of the few activities where I can use the language (besides h=
anging out in Zurich's Lion's Pub with a couple old Brit gits doing the Time=
's cossword puzzle while swillig Guinness and Cyder...). You have been schoo=
led in English, &nbsp;therefore your mastery of the langugage is far better =
than mine. However, in spite of that I'd like to discourage you to try writi=
ng literature in any other language than in your mother tongue. TSE's French=
 poetry, e.g., always strikes me as somewhat wooden, &nbsp;not nearly as evo=
cative as his English poetry. I wonder, has there ever been writers who coul=
d get away in a foreign language? I think Hilaire Belloque (whose *Tarantell=
a* I have memorized) was a Frenchman, but was perhaps raised in England. Mar=
cia will surely know.<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><FONT SIZE=3D"2">I think you already told me just to wr=
ite in English before, and perhaps that's still the best option. I should wr=
ite the story perhaps without to much regard for the actual language at firs=
t, as it is (in a novel) ultimately secondary to the story; or at least in t=
erms of construction - the story is what gives the language a backbone. Or p=
erhaps I can use foreign accents ... ;-)<BR>
</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;<BR>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><FONT SIZE=3D"2">Has anyone seen Buffy the Vampire Slay=
er incidentally?<BR>
<BR>
</FONT></FONT>Buffy the Vampire Slayer -- if the series are nealy as good a=
s the name I ought to check'em out!<BR>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><BR>
&nbsp;Contrary to what you might believe it is really a book-person's serie=
s, full of lovely irony and reference, and despite it's Gothicism very much =
rooted in today's society. I feel very much at home watching it and love eve=
ry minute. I bought the first season on DVD (12 episodes x 45 min. for about=
 $60, no commercials - though I mostly followed the series on BBC which also=
 doesn't have them) - it's the first series ever I found worth buying, in wh=
ich it beats even Star Trek TNG and Lois &amp; Clark, series which I loved t=
o watch. But Buffy is really something else - and that it's on DVD helps too=
, because you can go to any point in any episode in an instant, which makes =
it more like a book than ever before. &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;<BR>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><FONT SIZE=3D"2">If you have a DVD, buy it and watch al=
l twelve episodes. If you weren't pleased, I'll give you your money back. ;-=
)<BR>
</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;<BR>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><FONT SIZE=3D"2">I think perhaps I just need to be in l=
ove ... <BR>
<BR>
</FONT></FONT>That can't hurt -- oh, but, on second thoughts, &nbsp;it can!=
<BR>
<BR>
In another post, &nbsp;on Marc Aurel, &nbsp;I have written: *Its stoic wisd=
om will tell you that in the long run nothing is very important.* <BR>
There has been a small but important omission: I should have written *nothi=
ng much*.<BR>
<BR>
One of the few very important things, I am convinced, is mentioned in 4Q's =
focal point:<BR>
<BR>
Who then devised the torment? Love.<BR>
Love is the unfamiliar Name<BR>
Behind the hands that wove<BR>
The intolerable shirt of flames<BR>
That human power cannot remove.<BR>
<BR>
So here's my proposition to all of you, dear friends out there, reading my =
rambling post (perhaps a little naive and simplistic, sounding off like an o=
ld Boy Scout):<BR>
Do an act of love each day.<BR>
For reasons of some Spiritual Physics, you will profit from it; the good vi=
brations you sent out will come back to you. If this simpe maxime would be f=
ollowed universally, paradise on earth would be near.<BR>
<BR>
Enough pontificating ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Whishing you all a pleasant week,<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Gunnar<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE><B>Kazanzakis (novels), Buckminster Fuller, de Rougemont (Love =
in the Western <BR>
World), Maritain, Focillon, &nbsp;Bertrand Russell, Wittgenstein's Blue Boo=
k and <BR>
Brown Book, Mario Praz (Mnemosyne), Goethe's Farbenlehre (for the scientist=
 <BR>
in you), Paul Celan (poems), Isaac Rosenberg (poems), Sartre) No Exit), <BR=
>
Simone de Beauvoir (The Second Sex), Wiesel (Night), Edwin Abbott &nbsp;&nb=
sp;<BR>
(Flatland), Rudy Rucker (The Fourth Dimension), Martin Gardner (The <BR>
Ambidextrous Universe), Sutton (The Particle Connection), Robert Jastrow (T=
he <BR>
Enchanted Loom), Susan Sontag (Against Interpretation), Harold Bloom (The <=
BR>
Book of J), Freud (Jokes and Their Relation to the Unconscious), Jung's <BR=
>
Introduction to the I Ching, ...plus anything on the history of art, and no=
t <BR>
just western art. Then go back and focus on the Dadaists and Surrealists, a=
nd <BR>
get a subscription to Leonardo Magazine (art and technology). <BR>
<BR>
pat <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</B></BLOCKQUOTE><B><BR>
</B></BLOCKQUOTE>
</BODY>
</HTML>

--MS_Mac_OE_3067197007_794665_MIME_Part--

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