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Pat=20
The temple Classics' notes give;
_lonza_=3D leopard=3D worldly pleasures & the city of Florence
_leone_=3D lion=3D Ambition & the Royal house of France
_lupa_=3Dwolf=3DAvarice & the Papal See
They do not say where they get these equivalents from
The Temple Classics edition further refers the reader to Jeremiah 5:6 =
which reads
"Wherefore a lion out of the forest shall slay them, and a wolf of the =
evenings shall spoil them, a leopard shall watch over their cities: =
every one that goeth out thence shall be torn in pieces: because their =
transgressions are many and their backslidings are increased."
Of interest to our discussion my Random House pocket Italian dictionary =
gives _lonza_=3D pork loin.
Also earlier I said that Dante suffered from the sin of pride. He =
probably could identify with all three of these sins.
Rick Seddon
McIntosh, NM, USA
-----Original Message-----
From: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Sunday, March 18, 2001 12:48 PM
Subject: Re: Dans le Restaurant and the Commedia'm not saying that =
Steve's=20
=20
=20
In a message dated 3/18/01 1:49:04 PM Eastern Standard Time,=20
[log in to unmask] writes:=20
=20
=20
=20
The connections are arbitrary. There are woods all over 2 =
millennia of=20
Western poetry. =20
=20
=20
As I understood it, from Steve's description, the commentator was =
noticing=20
that in Dan le Restaurant, the waiter is frightened by an animal =
(dog). And=20
in the opening of the Commedia Dante is frightened by three animals =
(lion,.=20
leopard, wolf).=20
=20
Also you'll recall that Eliot spoke about the portion of La Vita =
Nuova where=20
Dante tells of falling in love with Beatrice at age 9. Eliot says =
the number=20
9 might have been chosen for symbolic reasons, as we should =
understand that=20
sexual awareness first occurs at an earlier age (Mr. Eliot as the =
good little=20
Freudian!). And now we have Eliot writing his own poem about a =
person's=20
earliest awareness of sexuality. So there's a lot of detail to sort =
out=20
before one can answer Steve's question, and I'd really like to see =
the entire=20
article.=20
=20
The "mid-way" of life is not like the "mid-way" of some child's =
sexual=20
fantasy interrupted by a big dog. None of it is LIKE Dante. =20
=20
The animals that accost Dante are usually interpreted by the =
annotators of=20
the Commedia as symbols of the lusts of the flesh, so it's not out =
of the=20
question, in my opinion, that Steve's author might have noticed =
something of=20
interest. Also it's typical of Eliot to make precisely the kind of =
jumps you=20
want to brush aside in this case--mid-way of one thing becomes =
mid-way of=20
something else. To take a word Dante used in one sense and use it in =
another=20
sense is one way of achieving repetition with variation, that good =
old=20
"Classical" value. Poets make these kinds of jumps all the time, =
maybe Eliot=20
far more often than you're allowing. Again, how is one supposed to =
decide=20
without reading the whole article?=20
=20
The poem ends in the Phlebas episode, which does not fit into any of =
this=20
unless you want to claim it is a kind of Dantesque punishment or you =
want=20
to stick on a divine salvation of purification by water. =20
=20
I don't like to discuss Dans le Resatuarant without Dirge, and I've =
taken the=20
position that all three of Eliot's drowned men are the same drowned =
man--that=20
we're being offered multiple views of a single corpse, not multiple =
corpses.=20
And that it's all the drowning of Dante's Ulysses, filtered through =
Joyce's=20
Ulysses. Notice that Phlebas first appears as a Phoenician, and =
Joyce rightly=20
or wrongly believed that Homer's Odyssey (where Ulysses is the main=20
character) was based on an earlier Phoenician story. So drowning is =
in fact=20
a Dantesque punishment, at least for Ulysses. On the waiter's need =
for a=20
bath, Dante is told to wash himself in Purgatory. So there's some =
intimation=20
that he needed to do so, that he wasn't clean when he entered the =
"dark=20
woods." On origins, my sense is that Eliot's drowning episodes were =
intended=20
at least in part as actualizations of Prufrock's anticipatory =
drowning=20
("human voices wake us and we drown"). I'm surprised that those who =
want an=20
autobiographical slant haven't addressed the question of what =
drowning--that=20
persistent image!--might have meant to Eliot. Here one can haul out =
Freud and=20
Jung and really make sense.=20
=20
Again, I'm not saying I agree with Steve's author--I too want to see =
more=20
connectors, as well as the entire article. Maybe he'll just send it =
to me, if=20
nobody else wants to read it.=20
=20
pat sloane=20
=20
=20
=20
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Pat </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>The temple Classics' notes give;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2> _lonza_=3D leopard=3D worldly pleasures =
& the city=20
of Florence</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>_leone_=3D lion=3D Ambition & the Royal house of =
France</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>_lupa_=3Dwolf=3DAvarice & the Papal =
See</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>They do not say where they get these equivalents=20
from</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>The Temple Classics edition further =
refers the=20
reader to Jeremiah 5:6 which reads</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2> "Wherefore a lion out of =
the forest=20
shall slay them, and a wolf of the evenings shall spoil them, a leopard =
shall=20
watch over their cities: every one that goeth out thence shall be torn =
in=20
pieces: because their transgressions are many and their backslidings are =
increased."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Of interest to our discussion my Random House pocket =
Italian=20
dictionary gives _lonza_=3D pork loin.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Also earlier I said that Dante suffered from the sin =
of=20
pride. He probably could identify with all three of these=20
sins.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Rick Seddon</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>McIntosh, NM, USA</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
</B><A href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A> =
<<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>><BR><B>To: =
</B><A=20
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A> =
<<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>><BR>=
<B>Date:=20
</B>Sunday, March 18, 2001 12:48 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: Dans le=20
Restaurant and the Commedia'm not saying that Steve's=20
<BR><BR></DIV></FONT><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT =
face=3D"Arial Narrow"=20
lang=3D0 size=3D3 FAMILY =3D SANSSERIF><B>In a message dated 3/18/01 =
1:49:04 PM=20
Eastern Standard Time, <BR><A=20
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A> writes:=20
<BR><BR></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial lang=3D0 size=3D2 =
FAMILY =3D=20
SANSSERIF></B><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"=20
TYPE =3D CITE>The connections are arbitrary. There are woods =
all=20
over 2 millennia of <BR>Western poetry. </FONT><FONT =
color=3D#000000=20
face=3DArial lang=3D0 size=3D3 FAMILY =3D =
SANSSERIF></BLOCKQUOTE><BR></FONT><FONT=20
color=3D#000000 face=3D"Arial Narrow" lang=3D0 size=3D3 FAMILY =3D =
SANSSERIF><B><BR>As=20
I understood it, from Steve's description, the commentator was =
noticing=20
<BR>that in Dan le Restaurant, the waiter is frightened by an animal =
(dog).=20
And <BR>in the opening of the Commedia Dante is frightened by three =
animals=20
(lion,. <BR>leopard, wolf). <BR><BR>Also you'll recall that Eliot =
spoke=20
about the portion of La Vita Nuova where <BR>Dante tells of falling =
in love=20
with Beatrice at age 9. Eliot says the number <BR>9 might have been =
chosen=20
for symbolic reasons, as we should understand that <BR>sexual =
awareness=20
first occurs at an earlier age (Mr. Eliot as the good little =
<BR>Freudian!).=20
And now we have Eliot writing his own poem about a person's =
<BR>earliest=20
awareness of sexuality. So there's a lot of detail to sort out =
<BR>before=20
one can answer Steve's question, and I'd really like to see the =
entire=20
<BR>article. <BR><BR></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial =
lang=3D0 size=3D2=20
FAMILY =3D SANSSERIF></B>The "mid-way" of life is not like =
the=20
"mid-way" of some child's sexual <BR>fantasy interrupted =
by a big=20
dog. None of it is LIKE Dante. <BR><BR></FONT><FONT=20
color=3D#000000 face=3D"Arial Narrow" lang=3D0 size=3D3 FAMILY =3D =
SANSSERIF><B>The=20
animals that accost Dante are usually interpreted by the annotators =
of=20
<BR>the Commedia as symbols of the lusts of the flesh, so it's not =
out of=20
the <BR>question, in my opinion, that Steve's author might have =
noticed=20
something of <BR>interest. Also it's typical of Eliot to make =
precisely the=20
kind of jumps you <BR>want to brush aside in this case--mid-way of =
one thing=20
becomes mid-way of <BR>something else. To take a word Dante used in =
one=20
sense and use it in another <BR>sense is one way of achieving =
repetition=20
with variation, that good old <BR>"Classical" value. Poets =
make=20
these kinds of jumps all the time, maybe Eliot <BR>far more often =
than=20
you're allowing. Again, how is one supposed to decide <BR>without =
reading=20
the whole article? <BR></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3D"Arial =
Narrow" lang=3D0=20
size=3D2 FAMILY =3D SANSSERIF></B><BR></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 =
face=3DArial=20
lang=3D0 size=3D2 FAMILY =3D SANSSERIF>The poem ends in the Phlebas =
episode, which=20
does not fit into any of this <BR>unless you want to claim it is a =
kind of=20
Dantesque punishment or you want <BR>to stick on a divine salvation =
of=20
purification by water. <BR><BR></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000=20
face=3D"Arial Narrow" lang=3D0 size=3D3 FAMILY =3D SANSSERIF><B>I =
don't like to=20
discuss Dans le Resatuarant without Dirge, and I've taken the =
<BR>position=20
that all three of Eliot's drowned men are the same drowned man--that =
<BR>we're being offered multiple views of a single corpse, not =
multiple=20
corpses. <BR>And that it's all the drowning of Dante's Ulysses, =
filtered=20
through Joyce's <BR>Ulysses. Notice that Phlebas first appears as a=20
Phoenician, and Joyce rightly <BR>or wrongly believed that Homer's =
Odyssey=20
(where Ulysses is the main <BR>character) was based on an earlier=20
Phoenician story. So drowning is in fact <BR>a Dantesque =
punishment,=20
at least for Ulysses. On the waiter's need for a <BR>bath, Dante is =
told to=20
wash himself in Purgatory. So there's some intimation <BR>that he =
needed to=20
do so, that he wasn't clean when he entered the "dark =
<BR>woods."=20
On origins, my sense is that Eliot's drowning episodes were intended =
<BR>at=20
least in part as actualizations of Prufrock's anticipatory drowning=20
<BR>("human voices wake us and we drown"). I'm surprised =
that=20
those who want an <BR>autobiographical slant haven't addressed the =
question=20
of what drowning--that <BR>persistent image!--might have meant to =
Eliot.=20
Here one can haul out Freud and <BR>Jung and really make sense.=20
<BR><BR>Again, I'm not saying I agree with Steve's author--I too =
want to see=20
more <BR>connectors, as well as the entire article. Maybe he'll just =
send it=20
to me, if <BR>nobody else wants to read it. <BR><BR>pat sloane=20
<BR></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial lang=3D0 size=3D2 =
FAMILY =3D=20
SANSSERIF></B><BR></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3D"Arial Narrow" =
lang=3D0=20
size=3D3 FAMILY =3D SANSSERIF><B><BR></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 =
face=3DArial=20
lang=3D0 size=3D2 FAMILY =3D=20
SANSSERIF></B><BR></FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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