LISTSERV mailing list manager LISTSERV 16.0

Help for TSE Archives


TSE Archives

TSE Archives


TSE@PO.MISSOURI.EDU


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Proportional Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

TSE Home

TSE Home

TSE  December 2002

TSE December 2002

Subject:

Re: 800 American professors and one student are wrong again

From:

Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

T. S. Eliot Discussion forum.

Date:

Mon, 23 Dec 2002 15:19:08 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (274 lines)

His own supports kept it under the rug?
How nice of them.

Cheers,
Peter

Dr. Peter C. Montgomery
Dept. of English
Camosun College
3100 Foul Bay Rd.
Victoria, BC CANADA V8P 5J2
[log in to unmask]
www.camosun.bc.ca/~peterm


-----Original Message-----
From: Nancy Gish [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, December 23, 2002 3:02 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: 800 American professors and one student are wrong again


Well, he was very interested in assuring us of the goodness of his heart,
but as it was already a stone, I am not sure the loss of the Senate
Majority Leader job was the cause of his transformation.

He got pilloried for saying what others have kept under the rug.  And it was
his own supporters who did it.
Nancy



Date sent:              Mon, 23 Dec 2002 14:56:00 -0800
Send reply to:          "T. S. Eliot Discussion forum."
<[log in to unmask]>
From:                   Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:                Re: 800 American professors and one student are
wrong again
To:                     [log in to unmask]

Is he the one who got turned into a pillory of stone
in the Senate for ringing the bell backwards?

Dr. Peter C. Montgomery
Dept. of English
Camosun College
3100 Foul Bay Rd.
Victoria, BC CANADA V8P 5J2
[log in to unmask]
www.camosun.bc.ca/~peterm


-----Original Message-----
From: Nancy Gish [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, December 23, 2002 2:52 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: 800 American professors and one student are wrong again


Dear Peter,

Have you been following the tribulations of Trent Lott?
Nancy



Date sent:              Mon, 23 Dec 2002 13:31:35 -0800
Send reply to:          "T. S. Eliot Discussion forum."
<[log in to unmask]>
From:                   Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:                Re: 800 American professors and one student are
wrong again To:                     [log in to unmask]

Oops. I think Al Jolson is back.
P.


Dr. Peter C. Montgomery
Dept. of English
Camosun College
3100 Foul Bay Rd.
Victoria, BC CANADA V8P 5J2
[log in to unmask]
www.camosun.bc.ca/~peterm

-----Original Message-----
From: deleuze oedipus rimbaud [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, December 23, 2002 1:27 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: 800 American professors and one student are wrong again



You are like a teacher, right, cause you sound like a real sexist.


cause it s not just like men, ok, its womyn too.


 Nancy Gish <[log in to unmask]> wrote:


Ad hominem means "to the man" and refers to critiquing the speaker
rather than the argument. To use the language you did about the
members of the list is thus "ad hominem."

Latin is very useful. "Diatribe" and "invective" come from the Latin, as
do many of the words in your original diatribe. In fact, if we stuck with
Anglo- Saxon, most of our intellectual debate would be hard-put for
language given the history of English after 1066.

It is true that some of the recent posts are extremely political, but in
an intellectual community, it is very hard to police topics. The members
of this list are such a community and many find it a place to discuss,
with people they respect, other things than Eliot. I don't see why any
individual member should use ad hominem arguments on that account, whether
they agree or not with the posts. To demand that only di! rectly related
material be allowed or used is a "personal consideration." Some of the
most interesting Eliot discussions--from my perspective--have come out of
previous unrelated posts. It is a continuum.

"How horrible of me. . . etc." is precisely the personalizing I objected
to; it shifts the discussion from ideas to you.

"Self-serving" and "ideologically driven" are ad hominem by definition and
not by interpretation since they address persons and not the content of
speech.

Who are you or any member of the list to define "what a forum is fit for"?
The forum, presumably, makes that choice collectively. It is not an issue
of knowledge but of a shared discussion. We are not an official body with
a mission statement and a set task.

"Outside any such place or set of ideologies" DEFINES "superior
intellectual position." It is based in much current theory of position and
discourse in contrast with assumptions of neutral! truths that transcend
location.

I found nothing threatening about what you said. I found it rude,
especially to Steve, whose post you mocked with "rah rah rah." He feels
deeply and for serious reasons, and you treated that as something to
trivialize. That is why I responded.

You are right that my last remark was sardonic and ad hominem. It was a
reaction to what I still feel was inappropriate language directed at
deeply felt commentary. There is no reason to apologize to me at all as it
was not my post you mocked and it was not to me you directed your satire.
I was sardonic because you made such a point about Latinate language while
using so many Latinate terms but mixing them with a style--affected by
Pound, Cummings, and others--of elaborate casualness.

I am answering all this with genuinely serious reasons since you seemed to
be asking for that rather than exclusively leaping back into personal
invective. I appreci! ate that and wish it would become a more common kind
of debate.

Merry Christmas,
Nancy




Date sent: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 07:50:53 -0800
Send reply to: "T. S. Eliot Discussion forum."
From: "Harm Tron v2.0b2r7"
Subject: Re: 800 American professors and one student are wrong again
To: [log in to unmask]

>From: Nancy Gish
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: 800 American professors and one student are wrong again
>Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 16:24:31 -0500
>
>Do you not see that YOUR post is ad hominem, vituperative, and in praise
>of ignorance (uninterest in any political position is just that)?

according to the american heritageŽ dictionary of the english language,
fourth edition, ad hominem means "appealing to personal considerations
rather than to logic or reason."

the objection i raised has to do with what i ! consider to be the self-
defeating nature of a community which is supposed to "foster & encourage
appreciation, study and DEBATE of tse" but instead diverges into chest-
pounding political diatribes sprinkled with latinate invectives.

now, i simply dont see anything ad hominem about the contradiction i was
pointing out. its perfectly logical to observe that time spent on
ideological discourse is time not spent on tse. one would expect these
arguments to at least invoke his specter (plenty has been said & written
of him & anti-semitism, no?) but that is not the case.

what "personal considerations" am i appealing to, prof. gish? the
"personal consideration" of expecting tse-related material on a tse
mailing list?

how horrible of me to entertain such outlandish expectation...

my three qualifiers, (a), b) & c), are ad hominems only to the extent to
which the reader interprets them as such. i went on to men! tion that i
affiliate myself with an institution which indulges in all three, havent
i? i personally find nothing objectionable about self serving,
ideologically driven descants in and of themselves; i read a fair amount
of editorials & quite enjoy the fray; what bothers me is the fact that
some if not a whole heap of tse list "contributors" pervert this medium to
serve whatever cause their own personal politics dictate. this isnt an
editorial page, & even if it were, it ought to at least MENTION the
literature.

knowing what forum is fit for what discourse is not "ignorance," prof.
gish. this has nothing to do with "uninterest in any political position" &
everything to do with awareness of what is a cathedra, what is a lectern
and what is a pulpit. im sure id find your and many others' "political
position[s]" fascinating, as long as they are articulated in the proper
context.

>That your assumption of a super! ior intellectual position outside any
>such place or set of ideologies is both self-serving and absurd--and
>itself ideologically driven?

pardon. for an english professor, your utter lack of textual reference is
most disturbing. please quote what part of my original reply implies "a
superior intellectual position."

>And that the mockery of academic communities (of which you are a member)
>is mockery of over a thousand years of accumulated knowledge and
>transmission of ideas, and that it is a shameless (and commonplace)
>self-aggrandizement appealing to anti-intellectualism--quite apart from
>being an undemonstrable sweeping generalization?

then it must be self mockery. i dont understand how i can be "appealing to
anti-intellectualism" when i am, as you astutely pointed out, a member of
the academic community myself. that you find any of my casual remarks so
terribly threatening is a testament to your! own tendencies, not mine.

>If you have a point to argue, please do. This is not one, and it is
>certainly unworthy of the education you are privileged to be getting. I
>am assuming the grammatical incompetence is a Poundian self-assertion and
>not a failure of Berkeley.

some would take your concluding remarks to be "appealing to personal
considerations rather than to logic or reason," prof. gish, maybe even
"using, containing, or marked by harshly abusive censure," that is to say,
vituperative.

ive nothing to prove, certainly not to you or any other tse-list denizen.
if anything, i find it amusing that such a mild set of observations
ruffled your feathers & entailed such a defensive attempt at a rebuke.

but if i did somehow insult you, i apologize & hope you have & enjoy a
very merry christmas.

/end_harm

______________________________________________________________
___
MSN 8:! advanced junk mail protection and 3 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail&xAPID=42&PS=47575&PI=7
324&DI=7
474&SU=
http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-
bin/getmsg&HL=1216hotmailtaglines_advancedj
mf_3mf








  _____

Post your free ad now!  <http://ca.personals.yahoo.com/> Yahoo! Canada
Personals

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

Advanced Options


Options

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password


Search Archives

Search Archives


Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe


Archives

October 2019
September 2019
August 2019
July 2019
June 2019
May 2019
April 2019
March 2019
February 2019
January 2019
December 2018
November 2018
October 2018
September 2018
August 2018
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
April 2018
March 2018
February 2018
January 2018
December 2017
November 2017
October 2017
September 2017
August 2017
July 2017
June 2017
May 2017
April 2017
March 2017
February 2017
January 2017
December 2016
November 2016
October 2016
September 2016
August 2016
July 2016
June 2016
May 2016
April 2016
March 2016
February 2016
January 2016
December 2015
November 2015
October 2015
September 2015
August 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
July 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
November 2013
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
May 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
October 2006
September 2006
August 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006
April 2006
March 2006
February 2006
January 2006
December 2005
November 2005
October 2005
September 2005
August 2005
July 2005
June 2005
May 2005
April 2005
March 2005
February 2005
January 2005
December 2004
November 2004
October 2004
September 2004
August 2004
July 2004
June 2004
May 2004
April 2004
March 2004
February 2004
January 2004
December 2003
November 2003
October 2003
September 2003
August 2003
July 2003
June 2003
May 2003
April 2003
March 2003
February 2003
January 2003
December 2002
November 2002
October 2002
September 2002
August 2002
July 2002
June 2002
May 2002
April 2002
March 2002
February 2002
January 2002
December 2001
November 2001
October 2001
September 2001
August 2001
July 2001
June 2001
May 2001
April 2001
March 2001
February 2001
January 2001
March 1996
February 1996
January 1996
December 1995
November 1995

ATOM RSS1 RSS2



PO.MISSOURI.EDU

Secured by F-Secure Anti-Virus CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager